Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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scipio-USMC
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Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:42 am

DeFeo's revisionist claims were that he did not witness the killings.

In 1986 he claimed he did not witness what occurred but believed that Dawn killed their father then his mother killed Dawn and the kids and shot herself then he shot his mother in anger for what she had done.

At his 440 hearing he claimed he did not witness her do it but Dawn had killed them all possibly with an accomplice who ran away and that she then he fought with Dawn over the gun and shot her.

Both tales are strikingly similar with him claiming heat of passion for the one person that he claimed to have killed only he mad eit also sound like partial self defense with Dawn trying to shoot him and thus struggling to disarm her.

The first tale about his mother being so horrible was met with such scorn and disbelief that he decided to change his tale for the 440 hearing.

The tale published in the Night The Defeo's Died is not only much more complex but he is much more involved.

Osuna and Katzenbach expect us to believe that Ron told this tale expecting to get rich from it. If that is the case it is all the more reason to discount it, it means he made it up in order to get rich.

But if he did make it up hoping to get rich what good would it be unless he had some hope of getting out of prison? What coudl he do with all that money in prison? There are only so many luxuries one can use in prison a lesser amount would do the same as a huge amount since the huge amount could not be spent anyway. Getting out of jail would be the only thing that owuld make a bundle useful to him.

That being the case why would he change from saying he wasn't even a witness to claim he was a participant in a conspiracy to murder his parents? That certainly wouldn't help get him released on parole. In fact it is an additional crime that he could be tried and convicted for conspiracy is separate and apart from comission of the underlying crime. The felony murder rule means he is responsible for any murders committed by his accomplices so claiming he didn't kill all of them them would not help him legally in the least.

If his goal was to become rich and hopefully enjoy the money while out on parole then he would have stuck to something along the lines of his previous tales not admitted to yet another crime of conspiracy and admit he had been planning the murders in advance. That would not get him paroled. So this actually makes the claim that he told his story with the expectation he would become rich unlikely.

Since DeFeo intended to keep trying to get paroled it simply is not credible he told this tale. It is just as unlikely that a single visit could result in him recounting this vast tale. It is impossible that most of the story was relayed to Osuna by DeFeo. There simply is not enough time for a single visit.

There is no monetary motive to tell a story like this. The only reason to tell this story would be if DeFeo was resigned to staying in prison and accepted he would be in prison for life but cared about his legacy and wanted to alter the events reported publicly so that future generations would see him in less of an evil light by placing much of the blame for the actual murders on others.

Frankly I have a hard time believing he cares about his legacy and would bother to tell this story to help it. He onlyl ies for two reasons, to get women to have relationships with him and in order to try to get out of prison. He doesn't care about his legacy. Telling a tale like this which ensures he will not get out of prison makes no sense.

Katzenbach ad Osuna know nothing at all about law, Katzenbach's complaint filed against Peter proves that extremely clear. Their suggestions that Suffolk County is scared because the conviction could be vacated is absurd. The tale has him for the actual murder of his father, mother and Dawn and accomplice liability for the murders of his other siblings.

If he actually though about making money he never in a million years would have admitted to conspiracy to kill his father. Rather he would have claimed Dawn shot their father on her own and then he was forced to shoot his father in self-defense. Moreover, he would not have admitted to shooting his mother he would have stuck with Dawn did it all and in the heat of passion I just killed Dawn, that is what his tale would have been to get money and hope to still be paroled to enjoy it.

The bottom line is that:

1) this tale diverges greatly from what DeFeo made up to try to help his cause and harms his cause evne more than the previous tales so there is reason to doubt he came up with the tale

2) even if he had come up with this tale there are multitides of reasons to doubt the claims the most obvious being why wouldn't he have told this account at trial instead of admitting he committed all the murders himself? In fact the story would have worked well with his insanity defense. It would have given far more material for Weber to use to try to argue insanity.

If this were actually the truth I just don't see any upside in telling the tale at the late date he supposedly told it.

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Howard64
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Howard64 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:36 am

One can look at the photo of Dawns Corpse and see the Butchie
did not fight with her over the gun. She was lying in a natural, sleeping position
with the blankets covering her accordingly.

I have seen detailed photos of Dawn after the murders. The way she was shot
she would have had to be lying perfectly still, with her face down for Defeo to
shoot her like she was.

Now just for the sake of argument. If it did happen as he puts it; he fought
with her, perhaps knocked her out somehow. He could have killed her. Then made
it look like she was asleep. Given this scenario; he would have thought out what to
do, making him cohesive enough to accomplish it. Now if he had knocked her
out as per my idea, I would think that there would be a contusion on her head somewhere
that would indicate blunt force trauma. I do not believe the autopsy revealed this.

In conclusion, i believe and always have that Butchie killed his family, all of them,
and is serving time as convicted.
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Rokiisun
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Rokiisun » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:00 pm

I believe that under the influence of alcohol and drugs, Ronnie was in the
Television room watching a war flick. He turned the television up loud to
Mask the shots, went from room to room, starting with his parents then younger
Sister, then his two brothers and finally Dawn last. There is always mention of
Someone getting out of their bed during his parole hearings and in the last
Testament he mentions, 'we got big problems al.' so I believe Allison may
Have got out of bed to see what was going on, then went back to sleep.

Though, this doesn't explain why she looks like she is in a natural sleeping
Position whereas Marc is found on his stomach instead of his back due to a football injury.
And there is Dawn on the third floor, did she maybe come down to check on Ronnie?
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Brendan72
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Brendan72 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:21 am

To this day it still bothers me how nobody appeared to get up, and appear to remain sleeping, for the duration the murders occurred.
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Howard64
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Howard64 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:32 am

It bothers me as well Brendan. I have entertained an idea. Albeit it
may seem far fetched, but what if there was some other unexplained
force at work during this time? It would explain a great deal.
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the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Rokiisun
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Rokiisun » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:28 pm

One strange thing I have noticed about the crime scene photographs is that
Marc, Big Ronnie and Jon do not have bed sheets covering their bodies -
whereas Dawn, Allison and Louise do have bed sheets covering their bodies.
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Dan the Damned
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Dan the Damned » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:24 pm

Yeah. But a few things spring to mind. First, the crime scene photographer was not the first one on the scene, so the sheets may have been pulled back by the people who first found the bodies. Second, there are shots of Dawn and Allison both under the covers and again later with the covers removed -- so perhaps we are only seeing some of the photos that were taken.

But yes, I think I read somewhere that the father was found with no blanket over him. Maybe the boys, too. Can't remember. Might be mentioned in "High Hopes."

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Brendan72
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Brendan72 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:16 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:Yeah. But a few things spring to mind. First, the crime scene photographer was not the first one on the scene, so the sheets may have been pulled back by the people who first found the bodies. Second, there are shots of Dawn and Allison both under the covers and again later with the covers removed -- so perhaps we are only seeing some of the photos that were taken.

But yes, I think I read somewhere that the father was found with no blanket over him. Maybe the boys, too. Can't remember. Might be mentioned in "High Hopes."
I don't have my copy of High Hopes with me as it is in storage. Where is Max when one needs him? *reaches for Bat-phone*
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scipio-USMC
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by scipio-USMC » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:29 am

Brendan72 wrote:To this day it still bothers me how nobody appeared to get up, and appear to remain sleeping, for the duration the murders occurred.
First of all there is substantial evidence that many of them did wake up. Louise began to turn on her side to move up to look towards the door. Likewise the fathe rpushed himself up to an extent after being shot. Allison had gunpowder in her eyes which means they were open and looking towards the muzzle of the weapon, she was not alseep. Ron asserted that Dawn got up but went back to bed after she called to ROn and he said everything was ok go back to bed. Whether the boys awoke and went back to bed is unclear.

Given what I have seen people sleep through not waking from the noise or awaking partially but then going back to bed and ignoring it doesn't surprise me in the least. Just watch people fall asleep druing tv shows even if blasting and there is a lot of shooting. Now that is not even real sleep. People awakened from a deep sleep take a good amount of time to wake up fully.

How many times have you been in a bad thunder storm and neighboring friends said they didn't even hear it or awake? The loudest sound I ever heard was wehn 4 buildings in a gunpowder plant blew up at 6am. It was louder than the gas main explosion in Edison NJ which I also experienced. Moreover it did substantial structural damage blowing out windows as well as damaging chimneys and foundations of homes within a 10 mile radius. My grandmother slept through it, friends slept through it. You know how they woke us up in the morning when on field training exercises? With a cannon- you want to talk about loud you are in a tent and a cannon is fired and echoes for miles extremely loud. There were always people who either did not hear it at all or simply woke for a second ignored it and went back to sleep.

That is a big issue people often do not investigate loud noises, they either assume it was thunder or something and go back to bed. The people least liekly to invesigate are younger children who will stay in bed hiding.

The facts are that he was watching a war movie so they probably even moreso were immune to the loud noises and more willing to ignore them and go back to bed with that in the background. The expectation of someone to immediately jump out of bed to investigate is not what usually occurs when people are in a deep sleep and assume they hear thunder or the like moreso broken glass or something more suspicious will get them to actually investigate. Anyway the oldest adults- th emost likely to actually investigate- were shot first. Allison surely woke up but probably heard the war movie in the background and thought that woke her or maybe thought it was thunder and either di dnot wake up fully enough to bother to get up and investigate or owke up but just stayed in bed trying to go back to sleep but heard her door open looked at the door and her bed was so close to the door her face was in the muzzle and boom.

The boys could have heard the noises and likewise assumed it was just the tv or thunder and thus stayed in bed or even could have slept through it. Even if they did awake the sound of the gunfire was not continuous it was staggered so they would not be sure if they heard it or not. There is a big difference between automatic fire and semiautoshots fired periodically which can be like thunder or even fireworks. Another thing is that even if they did wake up and were not sure what they heard they could have indeed be too scared to go investigate if not too lazy and the older boy was immobile so only the younger one could have gone to investigate. It doesn't really make a difference whether they slept through it or woke up but scared in bed and he went in the room found them awake and told them to turn on their stomachs.

I don't see why he would make up the claim that Dawn woke up and called down to him and he told her to go back to bed unless it actually happened. So the 3rd oldest one woke up and even investigated to an extent whereas the younger children likely did not and either slept through it entirely or awoke for a bit but brushed it off and tried to go back to sleep.

I have heard noises that woke me up but ignored them and gone back to bed even though I am more likely to investigate sounds than most people. I once investigated a crunching sound that turned out of be a mouse munching. I have ignored late night fireworks among other thing sliek loud TV shows with gunfire. I don't ge tup when i wake from thunder I go back to bed. knowing Ron was up woudl be even more reaosn to ignore sounds because of either thinking it wa shim or that he would investigate and handle it. I was always the last one to go to bed, woudd watch TV late and in the morning sometimes my parents used to ask in the morning if I heard certain sounds and what I thought it was.

It just doesn't surprise me that the children who were likely in a deep sleep would not immediately get out of bed to investigate the shots that killed their parents especially given Ron was not only around but watching the war movie.

People often assume that reactions will be much different than they actually are in real life. We often think how things appear on tv and in books are how they really are but often they differ tremendously from real life. A window breaking is much more suspicious than what could be thunder. Whether anyone else is in the house who could be making those noises makes a big difference as well. If you live alone and hear noises that is going to raise more of a flag.

Given the expectation that they would get up out of bed if they actually did so there would be reason to put them back in bed. The forensic evidence shows they were not put back in bed but shot where they were found. Some clown on another site claimed Luminol did not yet exist it did indeed exist and was sprayed all over and no cleaned up blood was found. Moreover bleach smells and if used int he rooms police would have noticed it. Also the trajectories show they were shot where found.

That they were all shot in bed doesn't trouble me as to believing he acted alone.

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Rokiisun
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Rokiisun » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:00 pm

I suffer from adult night terrors which are commonly set off by hearing banging
from behind my wall every night by my neighbors. I am a light sleeper because
I find trouble sleeping with too much on my mind.

During a night terror you are basically 'sleeping awake' and not able to make
sense of your surroundings because you are 'panicing' whilst you are still asleep
and you are completely unaware that your surroundings are the real thing, not
your dream map.

If there were problems going on in the family wouldn't some of the Defeo's
be light sleepers just like myself? In which case they may have woke up hearing
the shots. However, because they knew there was a television on in the background
before they dropped off to sleep and because they were probably used to hearing
'Shaggy' barking in the background each night, these noises wouldn't be alien to the Defeos.

What if Marc was found on his stomach because during his sleep he simply forgot he was
supposed to be sleeping on his back? It could be something as simple as that.

What if Allison 'woke up' at the time Ronnie entered her room? She would have been too
startled from her sleep to make sense of what was going on in the environment, or what
was happening to her once she had been shot.

Dawn being on the third floor would have indeed wanted to investigate the noise and
what was going on, and maybe she did this hours before the murders? Maybe she checked on
Ronnie in the TV room before heading to bed herself which is where Ronnie gets this
crazy, unrealistic idea of her handing him a rifle before the murders.

Big Ronnie was maybe startled from his sleep after being shot and Louise (half-alseep)
and not able to process why her husband was in pain, maybe moved on her side slightly
to casually check what was going on before being shot herself and again, not being able
to understand what was going on.

Jon, maybe being the youngest and sharing a room with an older brother probably felt
safe enough or in a house filled with many older persons to question what was going on
and probably continued sleeping after being casually disturbed.
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bella2005
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by bella2005 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:22 pm

I wear earplugs because my husband snores so I don't hear a thing. One time my husband was changing the battery in the smoke detector and it went off. I didn't hear a thing. Now the other night we had one of the most nasty thunderstorms ever and my husband slept through it while I was hiding in the basement. How he slept through it I have no idea.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Dan the Damned » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:17 pm

bella2005 wrote:One time my husband was changing the battery in the smoke detector and it went off. I didn't hear a thing.
That's why I don't wear ear plugs when sleeping. I'd be scared I won't hear the smoke detector if a fire broke out.

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Howard64
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Howard64 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:30 am

I found this while reading something Brendan posted. It is an article
concerning sleep paralysis...

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/paralysis.html

I was wondering if this might explain part of it. But then again all
of the members were affected so..i guess that kind of rules it out.
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Brendan72
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Brendan72 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:44 pm

I remember a post I made a few years back regarding hypnogogia. I found an article at the same site as Howard's:

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html
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scipio-USMC
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:53 am

The accounts in the Night The DeFeos Died are much more difficult to swallow than the kids not waking up or falling back asleep after the shots.

First of all, we are supposed to believe that all the kids were still awake in the early AM prior to the murders. Not only were they still awake but somehow Dawn and Ron knew they were all lying in bed awake. The account goes that Ron went to Allison's room to tell her there were burglars in the house so stay in their room and Dawn went to the boy's room to tell them the same thing. The notion they listened is absolutely hilarious. Especially after the gunshots. If asleep they would not have been aware of what was going on but awake thye would hear and after hearing they certainly would react somehow either to go run to their parents or to hide in a closet or under the bed or something not simply stay in bed for over an hour after hearing shots. Especailly after Ron supposedly said their parents wer ehurt one would expect them to go try to see their parents not stya in bed. Going to sleep after being told their parents were hurt and an ambulance is on the way is not credible and harder to awallow than simply not waking up fully from the shots.

Even worse than how would they know they were awake this begs the question of how Ron could claim he left before the murders occurred. The plan was supposedly for Ron to go back to NJ and pretend he had left the house before the murders or not been there at all that night. That being the case, if anything Dawn should have visited both rooms herself prior to the murders. Ron going in and saying there were burglars ruins any chance of claiming he wasn't there. The only thing more suspicious than Dawn alone driving the kids all the way to Brooklyn and calling the police from there instead of to call from the house and drive to the grandparents living only a few minutes away would be for Augie to drive Dawn and the kids to Brooklyn. It is pretty suspicious that older married man Augie was supposedly visiting at the same time burglars happened to break in and thus was able to drive them to Brooklyn. Even more suspicious though is why would Augie drive them instead of Ron? By visiting Allison prior to the murders that places Ron at the murder scene. in fact the acocunt is that he visited the kids repeatedly after the murders telling them he called for an ambulance. So he effectively placed himself at the murder scene before and after the murders. His siblings woudl tell police such.

How would he account for not calling police or for an ambulance for hours though suposedly telling the kids he did so and worse yet account for what he was doing while Augie and Dawn were on the way to Brooklyn. The claim is he needed the time to clean up the scene and hide evidence. Police would be able to figure that out quite easily because his NJ alibi was out the window by revelaing his presence to the kids.

If anything the account provides more of a reason for Ron to kill the kids than Dawn. They were the ones who would stand int he way of his alibi.

Moreover, we are supposed to buy that instead of immediately taking the evidence out of the house with him Ron left the evidence behind and:

1) at 2:30Am went out searching for Kelske because he feared Kelse would tell people what they had done (as if Kelske were the big mouth instea dof him and as if Kelske had some deathwish) Funny how to his death Kelske denied any part in the murders or being there to police yet supposedly he was going to blab so easily at 3AM to whoever he could find awake at that hour and that finding him was more important than getting rid of the murder weapon with Ron's prints on it. It would be more creidble if he claimed he took the evidence to dispose of while searching for Kelske especially since Kelske was already supposedly gone for over an hour at this point.

2) found Kelske and returned to the house around 4am to clean it up with Kelske. How would he know the kids were still home and not in Brooklyn at this point? If the police were not yet at the house they should be there any second. It would be worse to drive by wiht the police there and be stopped or if the cops were not yet there to go inside and get caught red handed while cleaning it up.

3) To still have any notions of driving the kids to Brooklyn at that point or even at 2:30 when he left to search for Kelske allegedly.

Driving the kids ANYWHERE as opposed to just running to a neighbor's house to call police would only make sense if done right away. It makes no sense to think that the burglar stayed behind in hiding somewhere waiting to kill the others even a half hour later let alone hours later. The killers would have no way of knowing whether neighbors would call the police or not or someone else in the house had called police or not and would want to get far away fast so would either split immediately or rapidly search the house to see who else to kill not stay in hiding to ambush them.

So here is what police would have been confronted with had the tale been totally true and been carried out instead of Dawn killing the kids:

Allison saying her brother came to her room around 1AM telling her a burglar was in the house and to stay in her room while he investigated. Shortly thereafter she heard gunshots and stayed in bed scared. Then 30-45 minutes later he comes in her room saying mom and dad are hurt and an ambulance is on the way so stay put. After 4:30 Augie and Dawn drive her and th eboys to Brooklyn and from there they call police.

Boys tell a similar tale.

In fact no ambulance had been called and the police were not called until they reached Brooklyn.

The tale makes no sense and police would easily be able to implicate Ron. It is much harder to swallow than simply they didn't fully awake.

kathyM
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by kathyM » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:33 pm

That book was bad. It gave me a headache with all the supposed running around they were doing that night. It didnt make any sense at all and it seemed like the author or Ronnie was just making up a story as they went along. The only thing good about the book was the pics.

Craig
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Re: Something rarely, if ever, mentioned

Post by Craig » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:09 pm

Did I read somewhere on these boards that Allison insisted that the hall bathroom light be left on at night?

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