Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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Vinnie Antonelli
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Vinnie Antonelli » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:52 am

A lot of Italian stereotypes being thrown around in this thread. Of course it's not offensive because the discussion is regarding Italians who can be kicked around at will. I wonder if that would fly if stereotypes were used to describe a black or hispanic family.

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BooshaGirl
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by BooshaGirl » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:00 am

I think people have gotten WAY too sensitive and politically correct lately. While I don't like using derogatory terms, stereotypes DO come from somewhere and in GENERAL are accurate. We must thicken our skins or we're all doomed. I really don't give a rat's a** WHAT people say about MY people...I don't mind "dirty jokes" and would never file a sexual harrassment suit based ona "dirty" joke (perhaps if a boss made my job dependent on a sexual ACT of some kind or my dentist raped me under anesthesia, I would, but come ON!) We need to laugh more and let certain things slide. You can have prejudices and observe general stereotypes without being a bigot.

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Dan the Damned » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:06 am

So you wouldn't mind if I said all blonds are dumb?

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BooshaGirl
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by BooshaGirl » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:10 am

No. I've heard "dumb blonde" jokes all my life (even though my hair isn't as blond naturally as it used to be) and I tell them myself. Wouldn't bother me a bit. Why? Because I know that all blondes are not dumb--as do most people who SAY all blondes are dumb--but a lot of them are or ACT as if they are to "appeal" to men (who are just as stupid if they're attracted to an idiot).

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Vinnie Antonelli
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Vinnie Antonelli » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:06 pm

I said it in jest, but it does ring true. Ummm, wait..dirty jokes? What does that have to do with stereotypes?

I don't know who "your" people are, but the fact of the matter remains, none of us knew the DeFeos personally and we're basing on what we think their personalities and behaviors were on the worst of Italian stereotypes. The only one in the family we do know is Butch. We know he's an ignorant, dumb, lying, disrespectful, murdering POS.

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TrainDispatcher
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by TrainDispatcher » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:22 pm

Today I was getting gas at Costco, and on the other side of the pump I was using there was a man trying to figure out how to use it (every one is different these days). The woman in the car was yelling (very loud) "PUT YOUR CARD IN! THE OTHER WAY! NO LOOK HOW THE PICTURE IS! OK! NOW PUT YOUR ATM CARD IN! THE OTHER WAY! SAME WAY AS YOUR COSTCO CARD!" I honestly though she was then going to yell his ATM pin at him (she didn't), then she starting using obscenities, I wanted to say, "Either you get off your fat a$$, or shut the hell up."

Not sure if they were Italian or not (not important), but I couldn't help but think of this thread... I know people might talk like that in private, but in public where there's a lot of people around? Seriously?

If this was for an episode of Primetime What Would You Do? or Candid Camera and does make it on air... the guy wearing the USS Ronald Reagan Hat filling up a burgundy Mercury was me!

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Shawn
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Shawn » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:18 pm

Vinnie Antonelli wrote:I said it in jest, but it does ring true. Ummm, wait..dirty jokes? What does that have to do with stereotypes?

I don't know who "your" people are, but the fact of the matter remains, none of us knew the DeFeos personally and we're basing on what we think their personalities and behaviors were on the worst of Italian stereotypes. The only one in the family we do know is Butch. We know he's an ignorant, dumb, lying, disrespectful, murdering POS.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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bella2005
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by bella2005 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:50 pm

I think the problem lies with the whole the Defeo's were in the mob theory. So now the Defeo's are just like the people in Goodfellas or The Godfather.

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BooshaGirl
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by BooshaGirl » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:08 am

Agree with Bella--and good point, Vinnie. I always say I'm "AMERICAN first and FOREMOST" when people ask of my "ethnicity." Look, I've never been to Norway--I don't call myself a "Norwegian American." Most Italians I know have never been to Italy--so they aren't "ITALIAN Americans." I've never met one black person in my LIFE (and I grew up in Detroit and have MANY MANY black friends) who has been to the continent of Africa. I will never use the term "African American!" I just hate all that crap. That's all--it's just me. A proud American. I don't care about my ancestors. For all I know, my great-great-great-great Viking grandfather may have raped and pillaged and kidnapped a woman for his wife somwehere in Africa or England or Germany and that's what I am...nobody knows what they REALLY are for certain or what's REALLY in their blood. The DeFeo's were, in my opinion, a very loud family. Lots of families are loud. Italian or otherwise. I meant nothing by it in a mean or nasty way...honest.

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TrainDispatcher
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by TrainDispatcher » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:12 am

BooshaGirl wrote:Agree with Bella--and good point, Vinnie. I always say I'm "AMERICAN first and FOREMOST" when people ask of my "ethnicity." Look, I've never been to Norway--I don't call myself a "Norwegian American." Most Italians I know have never been to Italy--so they aren't "ITALIAN Americans." I've never met one black person in my LIFE (and I grew up in Detroit and have MANY MANY black friends) who has been to the continent of Africa. I will never use the term "African American!" I just hate all that crap. That's all--it's just me. A proud American. I don't care about my ancestors. For all I know, my great-great-great-great Viking grandfather may have raped and pillaged and kidnapped a woman for his wife somwehere in Africa or England or Germany and that's what I am...nobody knows what they REALLY are for certain or what's REALLY in their blood. The DeFeo's were, in my opinion, a very loud family. Lots of families are loud. Italian or otherwise. I meant nothing by it in a mean or nasty way...honest.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Well said BooshaGirl!

Kinzoku
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Kinzoku » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:24 pm

BooshaGirl wrote:Agree with Bella--and good point, Vinnie. I always say I'm "AMERICAN first and FOREMOST" when people ask of my "ethnicity." Look, I've never been to Norway--I don't call myself a "Norwegian American." Most Italians I know have never been to Italy--so they aren't "ITALIAN Americans." I've never met one black person in my LIFE (and I grew up in Detroit and have MANY MANY black friends) who has been to the continent of Africa. I will never use the term "African American!" I just hate all that crap. That's all--it's just me. A proud American. I don't care about my ancestors. For all I know, my great-great-great-great Viking grandfather may have raped and pillaged and kidnapped a woman for his wife somwehere in Africa or England or Germany and that's what I am...nobody knows what they REALLY are for certain or what's REALLY in their blood. The DeFeo's were, in my opinion, a very loud family. Lots of families are loud. Italian or otherwise. I meant nothing by it in a mean or nasty way...honest.


You are SO correct Boosh.. My family is a LOUD FAMILY, too! I wouldn't change it for a thing! People always assume we're Italian, Greek or Spanish. I say no. we're just Loud-Americans.
:fp:

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Grim_Reaper
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Grim_Reaper » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:41 pm

Shawn wrote:
"His mother would yell down and tell him to turn down the sterio, then they would usualy start yelling at each other"

No abuse, Ronnie's mother or Father never beat him up in front of his friends in this case.

How many "abused" kids yell at their abusive parents???? That's just insane. There was obviously NO fear of his parents in Butch what so ever. Abused my ....... :roll:
when no longer kids that does change. and even before that happenens teh abused kids do entertain thought of violence back at thier attacker.
case in point, my oldest was abused in his mothers home mainly by her current husband and at times i known him to say his cant wait till he gets bigger so he can go and beat him up

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Grim_Reaper
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by Grim_Reaper » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Shawn wrote:Then please DO explain how Butch still lived in that house when he was 23....okay? EVERY person that I know that was really abused could not wait to get out of their situation. I was abused to some extent and GOT OUT when I was 16. sorry, the abuse angle does not wash. I am from an Italian family as well btw. However, my father, who was the abuser, was of English descent. My mothers side, who i grew up with, was out of the boat/Ellis Island Italians. Never once did they abuse anyone. However, Italians do have big mouths. But that is as far as it goes.
simple, Ron Jr simply was not able to raise himself to any reasonable degree and depended on dads money

lostinthe50s81
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by lostinthe50s81 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:44 am

to be fair, i see where victoria is coming from. i'm not saying ronald sr. was abusive, nor am i excusing ronnie for the murders. however, i saw many comments regarding the alleged incident when ronnie was 2 and talking about what a nasty kid he was being. he was 2!! if you know a 2 year old child who isn't a pain at least once a day, i'll give you the deed to my house! i have two cousins (a boy and a girl a year apart in age) who were abused by their stepfather since childhood. both stayed in this abusive home well past 18 despite multiple chances to leave. the girl is 21 now and actually turned out pretty responsible. the boy however, is ronnie to the t! he's a nice guy but he'll stab you in the back to avoid being in trouble. he'll be your best friend until you say something he doesn't agree with, then he'll take a swing at you. he believes the world owes him something. he's never had a real job, lived on his own, lies constantly, gives totally different answers to the same question if asked more than once

lostinthe50s81
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by lostinthe50s81 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:23 am

the only true difference between ronnie and my cousin who is now 22, is that he hasn't killed anyone whereas ronnie has. basically what i'm saying is that while i don't necessarily believe ronald sr. was abusive, it would explain alot if he was. i.e. ronnie becoming unstable, poor school performance, being disconnected from other family members, indifference to events, etc. i believe that had ronnie received proper help in his younger years by someone competent, perhaps he could've turned out ok and the murders wouldn't've happened. he could've been pushed over the edge early on to the point where he just didn't care anymore, became empty inside and began caring only about himself just like my cousin, hypothetically speaking. people don't typically turn out like ronnie for no reason. although i believe ronald sr. truly loved and cared for his family deeply, it's still something to think about. perhaps maybe he was abused by someone other than his father? maybe even outside the family altogether?

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quotestheraven
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by quotestheraven » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:20 pm

I worked for a domestic violence program for 8 years (just left this past December) and all our training said we only ever heard from 5% of victims of DV. That is even with all the increased awareness/education/etc. In the 1970's the domestic violence movement was only just beginning. There were no domestic violence laws. Domestic Violence shelters were almost unheard of. Even if the police ever did get called out to the Defeos there was probably no report filed BECAUSE it was a domestic incident, and it was still widely believed that these things should be handled within families.

Something I also know from years of experience working with victims is that the victims often don't tell their families and friends how bad the abuse is. Sometimes the family has no idea at all. Louise might have been scared that if she told her father he'd kill Ronnie Sr and then her kids would grow up without a father.

Something else we know specificially about the Defeos is that they weren't cafeteria Catholics. The parents, at the very least, took their faith very seriously. They were involved in the church. There are stories of the kids being required to say the rosary every night. Divorce is not an option for a serious Catholic - no matter how bad it is.

The culture was a lot different in the 1970s then it is now, and I think part of the problem is that we're looking back and trying to understand 1974 with a 2013 mind.
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scipio-USMC
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:00 pm

First of all trouble for whom?

The crap about him being abusive was tried at trial to try to mitigate the father's murder. Frankly the defense could not come up with much at all by way of evidence. If her were actually abusive there would have been more evidence for them to actually bring to bear. If they could not find it contemporaneously we certianly won't after all these years.

Since the abusive crap is being pushed by Geraldine and Ronnie I don't put much stock in it at all. Frankly, Ronnie deserved severe beatings for some of the things he did.

In retrospect they should have tossed him out on his ass when he was 18 and not looked back but they tried to help him as Italian Catholics would be apt to do. The problem was clearly Ronnie.

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quotestheraven
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by quotestheraven » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:50 am

Scorp, the problem is that there wouldn't have been a lot of evidence of him being abusive because the family wouldn't have talked about it. Right now, today, in 2013 - 95% of victims of abuse never report the abuse. I have had many a victim in my office who had never told her parents because she was ashamed. The fact that they could produce any evidence at all tells me that Ronnie Sr probably was abusive.

However, the fact remains - Butch was 23 years old at the time of the murders. He could have moved out. He claims he did leave twice and his father always "made" him come back. How did his father even know where he was? Could it be because Butch called home asking for money? At any time, Butch could have hopped a bus to the West Coast, and his family would have never seen or heard from him again - sort of like Dan Lutz did. But, that would have required him to get a job and stand on his own two feet. Ronnie didn't want to do that.
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scipio-USMC
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by scipio-USMC » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:55 am

quotestheraven wrote:Scorp, the problem is that there wouldn't have been a lot of evidence of him being abusive because the family wouldn't have talked about it. Right now, today, in 2013 - 95% of victims of abuse never report the abuse. I have had many a victim in my office who had never told her parents because she was ashamed. The fact that they could produce any evidence at all tells me that Ronnie Sr probably was abusive.

However, the fact remains - Butch was 23 years old at the time of the murders. He could have moved out. He claims he did leave twice and his father always "made" him come back. How did his father even know where he was? Could it be because Butch called home asking for money? At any time, Butch could have hopped a bus to the West Coast, and his family would have never seen or heard from him again - sort of like Dan Lutz did. But, that would have required him to get a job and stand on his own two feet. Ronnie didn't want to do that.
Evidence of abuse comes in many forms including bruises. The notion he would only beat her where the bruises could not be seen isn't very likely. My grandfather's dad was an abusive alcoholic. He and his brother tossed their father out on his ass (after giving him a well deserved beating) when my grandfather was 16 and said he could come visit them but if you ever touch her again or any of the kids you're dead. He never tested my grandfather which was a good decision because my grandfather was not one to toss around idle threats and his hands were like bricks. The husband of my grandfather's older sister touched her once. My grandfether saw the bruises and beat the crap out of him so bad that he never even attempted to touch her ever again. He lied and told everyone he got hit by a truck that is how bad he looked when my grandfather was done with him. There are signs if people look for them and are actually around. The time it is easiest to hide things like that is if someone is kept isolated from their family or want to shut their eyes to it. We are not in any position to assess such because the supposed evidence is way too scant. Only close family and friends would be any position at all to know what was going on between husband and wife in that house. Everything about this is coming from Ron, a known liar, and his motiviation for such is to try to say his father deserved it.

If my grandfather's dad returned and beat anyone he is the one my grandfather would have taken out. Not his mother or siblings. His mother and siblings is who he was trying to protect. So the entire story makes no sense of killing the abusive father and taking out the others with him. So in addition to a complete lack of corroboration of any kind we have a story that makes no sense at all of the murders being a result of abuse.

Indeed the story about Ron being dragged home twice makes no sense at all. He was such a troublemaker WHY would they go out of their way to get him back in the house? More like he could not afford his own place and that is why he went back home. In addition you have the BS about having a great union job but his father forced him to quit and work at the car dealership. What a load of crap. His work records showed he either waled off every job he had or was fired for bein late or not showing up constantly. His lack of work ethic was detailed when the shrink diagnosed him as a sociopath. One of the hallmarks is being unable to hold down a job. Ron blames everyone else for his life being crap. The truth is that he got all the help in the world to make something out of himself but it did not help. He was just a worthless bum and that is all he would ever be even if he had not killed his family.

lostinthe50s81
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by lostinthe50s81 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:24 pm

maybe ronnie had that warped thought that it was "putting them out of their misery". like that lady years back that drowned her two kids in the car

scipio-USMC
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Re: Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

Post by scipio-USMC » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:43 am

lostinthe50s81 wrote:maybe ronnie had that warped thought that it was "putting them out of their misery". like that lady years back that drowned her two kids in the car
His excitement at recounting the murders illustrates he enjoyed it and all he cared about was getting the money. He didn't even attend the funerals. He is a sociopath who cares only about himself.

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