Trouble With the Truth/Was Senior Abusive?

[sswusfc]

Someone did a post on if Ronald DeFeo Senior was abusive, and in order to answer that question, one has to start by stating the trouble with determining the truth about what happened at 112 Ocean Ave. While the alleged haunting can be included, I'm not specifically talking about it.
The first issue with determining the truth about what really happened is that almost four decades have passed since the nurders, and it has been well over four and a half decades since the DeFeos moved into the home.
The second issue with determining the truth about what happened is that the book "polluted the air" so badly. The number of inconsistencies in the book is so overwhelming, it is impossible to ignore. Not to mention that I read Anson's "666" about 6 years after "TAH," and 666 was truly a terrifying piece of fiction.
The third issue with determining the truth is that the one person who MAY know about what happened that night and in the days, weeks, months, and years leading up to that night has told so many conflicting stories through the years, it is impossible to believe a word of what he says.
The fourth issue with determining the truth is there were so many players in this story with so many conflicting stories, it is impossible to know who is lying and who is truthing.
Until the day each of the Lutzes left us, they insisted the story was true. Each passed a polygraph test, but a polygraph is inadmissible in court. It doesn't mean the person is telling the truth; it means he/she believes he/she is telling the truth.
If Junior did indeed point aloaded gun at Senior and if not for the fact that the gun jammed would have blasted him into the hereafter, why didn't Senior take steps to protect his family?
Possibly the most objective place to start would be the transcript of Junior's trial.

[Shawn]

Are you saying that an influence in the house may be causing everything that happened? Like Ronnie going mad etc? Possible, oh yes. Hauntings/influences/whatnot I strongly believe can cause extreme anger in people. Absolutely.

I, myself have a strong suspicion of that. Ronnie got "influenced" as did Ronald Sr. in the form of raw anger, and it just grew over the years until it burst horribly, leaving Butch a lying pathetic psychiatric mess and 6 people dead. Then George moves into the house, tries to do what a lot of people would do, contact the dead there and got more than he asked for. Unfortunately for George, what he called up stayed with him.

As for the gun thing? I bet that never really happened. Given the so called "abuse" by Sr, do you really think he would of let Butch walk after that? No. Sr prolly would of tried to KILL Butch after that....or throw him out. I think the key to the murders is the robbery. It was all over for Butch and he knew it. He said over and over in interviews it was either them or him. He made it him. He got just them first.

[sswusfc]

I do not necessarily think demonic forces drove Junior to murder the family. If so, why did the family live there for ten years? I also think if you drank and chased the dragon as much as Ronnie did, you too might hear demonic voices.I wonder what - if any - connections to organized crime or drug deal gone bad had to do with it. But I do have a number of questions about this case, questions that have remained unanswered all this time. I have my serious doubts that Ronald Jr. did this himself. I would like to know how so many people could be murdered and found in the same position. I find Weber's theory about DeFeo having an incestuous relationship with his sister plausible.
As far as the alleged haunting is concerned, I find the theory that the Lutzes underwent a low level of psychic experience plausible. I also find the explanation that George Lutz bit off more than he could chew financially plausible. One child - much less three - can empty your bank account. But I have three questions that have not been answered:
1) The pictue of the "little boy" (which could be a crewman wearing glasses.
2) The Lutzes passed the polygraph (which simply means they're believing what they say).
3) Look at the picture on Lutz's website, and I swear in one of the windows, I see a middle aged man in the window below the right quarter moon window, the top half of the window filled with the face, the bottom half with a suit or tie. And no, I'm not trying to find faces where none exist.

[Dan the Damned]

Yes. Well, welcome to the board.

I think everyone agrees that Anson's book contains fiction, and that there are a multitude of people involved in this case whose statements should be taken with a grain of salt. That's why we're here -- to discuss this stuff and to see if we can strip away all the BS (and see what we're left with).

You touch on many issues, all of which have their own threads. If you haven't yet, you should check those threads out, read what others have said and ask whatever questions you may have in there. We're fully indexed by Google, so it may be easier to do a Google search of our forum, which frankly gives better search results than our board's own search function. Simply go to Google and type in "site:amityvillefaq.com" before your search term, like this:



...and that will give you results for this forum matching your search terms.

[Shawn]

OMG!

[Victoria Principles]

Are you saying that an influence in the house may be causing everything that happened? Like Ronnie going mad etc? Possible, oh yes. Hauntings/influences/whatnot I strongly believe can cause extreme anger in people. Absolutely.

I, myself have a strong suspicion of that. Ronnie got "influenced" as did Ronald Sr. in the form of raw anger, and it just grew over the years until it burst horribly, leaving Butch a lying pathetic psychiatric mess and 6 people dead. Then George moves into the house, tries to do what a lot of people would do, contact the dead there and got more than he asked for. Unfortunately for George, what he called up stayed with him.

As for the gun thing? I bet that never really happened. Given the so called "abuse" by Sr, do you really think he would of let Butch walk after that? No. Sr prolly would of tried to KILL Butch after that....or throw him out. I think the key to the murders is the robbery. It was all over for Butch and he knew it. He said over and over in interviews it was either them or him. He made it him. He got just them first.

Butch had psychological problems and anger issues long before they moved into the house. You can't blame the house or forces for causing this. There is also strong evidence the family had mob ties. The mob are not a bunch of nuns, it's a violent organization. If Butch grew up in a life with violence around him, he is more likely to respond to violence with violence.

[Victoria Principles]

Someone did a post on if Ronald DeFeo Senior was abusive, and in order to answer that question, one has to start by stating the trouble with determining the truth about what happened at 112 Ocean Ave. While the alleged haunting can be included, I'm not specifically talking about it.
The first issue with determining the truth about what really happened is that almost four decades have passed since the nurders, and it has been well over four and a half decades since the DeFeos moved into the home.
The second issue with determining the truth about what happened is that the book "polluted the air" so badly. The number of inconsistencies in the book is so overwhelming, it is impossible to ignore. Not to mention that I read Anson's "666" about 6 years after "TAH," and 666 was truly a terrifying piece of fiction.
The third issue with determining the truth is that the one person who MAY know about what happened that night and in the days, weeks, months, and years leading up to that night has told so many conflicting stories through the years, it is impossible to believe a word of what he says.
The fourth issue with determining the truth is there were so many players in this story with so many conflicting stories, it is impossible to know who is lying and who is truthing.
Until the day each of the Lutzes left us, they insisted the story was true. Each passed a polygraph test, but a polygraph is inadmissible in court. It doesn't mean the person is telling the truth; it means he/she believes he/she is telling the truth.
If Junior did indeed point aloaded gun at Senior and if not for the fact that the gun jammed would have blasted him into the hereafter, why didn't Senior take steps to protect his family?
Possibly the most objective place to start would be the transcript of Junior's trial.

The other problem is that many of Ronnie's friends back in the day also left us. We don't have many people left who could say that what they really knew.

[AutumnMaidenDove]

Butch had psychological problems and anger issues long before they moved into the house. You can't blame the house or forces for causing this. There is also strong evidence the family had mob ties. The mob are not a bunch of nuns, it's a violent organization. If Butch grew up in a life with violence around him, he is more likely to respond to violence with violence.

I disagree. I grew up in a very violent and abusive home and I have NEVER used violence against another human being. Yes it does happen, but it's not always the case.

[Victoria Principles]

Butch had psychological problems and anger issues long before they moved into the house. You can't blame the house or forces for causing this. There is also strong evidence the family had mob ties. The mob are not a bunch of nuns, it's a violent organization. If Butch grew up in a life with violence around him, he is more likely to respond to violence with violence.

I disagree. I grew up in a very violent and abusive home and I have NEVER used violence against another human being. Yes it does happen, but it's not always the case.

Doesn't mean everyone becomes abusive after growing up in an abusive or violent home, but studies shows that children who grow up in abusive and disfunctional homes are much more likely to become drug and alcohol addicts and become violent and commit crimes themselves.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/effects.htm
http://www.thecoalition.org/Children%20and%20Domestic%20Violence.htm
http://www.gacircleofhope.org/effects_on_children.htm

Now let check Jr's history:

Became involved with drugs? Check
Became involved in crime as a juvenile? Check
Is a habitual liar and stealer? Check
Commited a horrendous violent crime? Check

All of these are signs of someone who witnessed violent acts as a child. Few people are around anymore to know for sure that the DeFeo household were violent, but the stories about it came out since the murderers. You will hear from the conspiracy theorists that the press published these stories just to sell newspapers, but that is a rediculous assuption.

[astonio]

Not necessarily discounting your theory, but what evidence is there the household was 'violent'? I've read instances of alleged abuse, but I've heard but 2 instances other than Butch's statements that the house was 'violent'.

[Victoria Principles]

Not necessarily discounting your theory, but what evidence is there the household was 'violent'? I've read instances of alleged abuse, but I've heard but 2 instances other than Butch's statements that the house was 'violent'.

Read this.
http://www.amityvillefiles.com/wp-content/themes/amity/images/files/participants/rondefeo/sole_survivor_-_the_buick_dealer___s_lot_attendant.pdf

Very informative though there are certain people who will say the conspiracy theorists in the book are all liars and the press created these stories to sell newspapers.

[astonio]

Yeah...I have this. This is suspect at best, along with other material insinuating the household climate. I just think due to the nature of the crime, the public grappled for reasoning to explain motive. With much of the material I've amassed over the years concerning the case (31yrs of material), I've found two instances which support a parent maybe 'losing' it, but not years and years of psychological, systematic abuse. Butch consistently challenges his parents just from a surface point of view in comparison to the other four kids. Sure, we'll give our parents the business time to time, but the link and other "reports" expand this way beyond fact. It would be evident in other areas. It's fodder for folks like Mr. Katzenbach, Mr. Osuna, Ms. Gates, to establish THEIR belief of life in the DeFeo household. Where are the police reports concerning domestic dispute? What tangible, credible insight do we have to establish Mr. DeFeo as some monster? Aside from Michael Brigante's claim regarding an incident when Butch was 2 and the alleged incident witness from one of Butch's friends during Mr. DeFeo's dinner (which has been suspect, as well), there's nothing more. You would have a pattern, a trend to fall back on. The kids, the kids' friends, the teachers, the community, the police, etc. No one has come forward since '74 (aside from a juror, the housekeeper maybe?) to legitimize the house was in some terror. The only person who has had a tangible trail of being abusive is, well, Butch himself. Not just with the murders. There were more than 2 instances to support this and from various sources to include the police.

Am I missing something?

[Victoria Principles]

Yeah...I have this. This is suspect at best, along with other material insinuating the household climate. I just think due to the nature of the crime, the public grappled for reasoning to explain motive. With much of the material I've amassed over the years concerning the case (31yrs of material), I've found two instances which support a parent maybe 'losing' it, but not years and years of psychological, systematic abuse. Butch consistently challenges his parents just from a surface point of view in comparison to the other four kids. Sure, we'll give our parents the business time to time, but the link and other "reports" expand this way beyond fact. It would be evident in other areas. It's fodder for folks like Mr. Katzenbach, Mr. Osuna, Ms. Gates, to establish THEIR belief of life in the DeFeo household. Where are the police reports concerning domestic dispute? What tangible, credible insight do we have to establish Mr. DeFeo as some monster? Aside from Michael Brigante's claim regarding an incident when Butch was 2 and the alleged incident witness from one of Butch's friends during Mr. DeFeo's dinner (which has been suspect, as well), there's nothing more. You would have a pattern, a trend to fall back on. The kids, the kids' friends, the teachers, the community, the police, etc. No one has come forward since '74 (aside from a juror, the housekeeper maybe?) to legitimize the house was in some terror. The only person who has had a tangible trail of being abusive is, well, Butch himself. Not just with the murders. There were more than 2 instances to support this and from various sources to include the police.

Am I missing something?

We have been through this before. Domestic abuse didn't come to be discussed about until the late 1970s. Police were not called domestic disputes much in this time frame. Neighbors, teachers, etc didn't get involved in such stuff back then. It was considered a private matter between husband and wife and/or family. Many people don't know about abuse. Friends of OJ were surprised when he was wanted for suspecting of killing his wife and her friend.

Why would Michael Brigante lie about what he saw? Many of these reports in this book came from both psycologists for both the prosceution and defense. They got the psychological report from DeFeo from when he was a teen.

The family also was strongly suspected of having mob ties. The mob is such a great benovolent organization, isn't it. There were neighbors who spoke off record as having the DeFeos as being loud and always screaming at one another. I guess the media made this up as well.

[astonio]

Don't get it twisted, Vic. I didn't say Michael Brigante was lying. I am saying he cited one incident. I get that it wasn't discussed in the 70s. I totally understand this. What I am saying is one incident, and no other witnesses to events does not make Mr. DeFeo an abuser. How can you cement he was one by pieces of info?

If you used the 'N' word once, knew you erred, are you a racist for life? Should you pass unexpectedly, can we assume you lived a certain way, had certain lifestyle because a couple of instances are cited from your life...which you're unable to defend being deceased?

As for the sources of these alleged abuse incidents...where did they come from? Someone trying to amount a defense to save themselves from harsh punishment? As for the mob ties, maybe that's true, but how deep can we ever know the involvement Mr. DeFeo had...via the son who murdered him and initially blamed it on a mob enforcer...who was in his 70s at the time of the murders?

Grain of salt...

[kathyM]

The alleged incidents of abuse seemed to have come from Ronnie. Who else said anything other than the family being loud and screaming all the time?

The incident with Brigante I cant take as proof alone. This could have been a one time thing and we dont know the whole story from all that were there. I dont think the Brigantes thought much of Ronald Sr. anyway.

Here is a question: Did Ronald Sr. and Louise have to get married or did they get married young and then have Ronnie?

[VampireKen]

I honestly think, he was just abusive towards Ronnie, Why? Because Ronnie was out of control. Here's the thing, supposedly if we go by what Geraldine and Ronnie say, then Defeo Sr. is this abusive father who beats his wife and kids for no reason daily. No the case. In fact, Ronnie's friends never noticed him as abusive, strict? yes, but not abusive. For example, taken from the New York Times, November 14th

"His mother would yell down and tell him to turn down the sterio, then they would usualy start yelling at each other"

No abuse, Ronnie's mother or Father never beat him up in front of his friends in this case.



When Ronnie attacked his ex girlfriend and she ran to big Ronnie for help, he came to the bar with her and found Ronnie. After Ronnie attacked her again Big Ronnie ordered Ronnie to apologize but he ran off. Still no abuse.

[astonio]

@VampireKen - good points! It's funny how it's harped upon regarding Butch at 2 incident and Mr. DeFeo flipping out over noise at dinner (really? with a house FULL of kids...really??), but nothing is EVER mentioned of when Butch went ape$@#!! and terrorized his mom and siblings to the point Mrs. DeFeo asked his friend to please stay the night since Mr. DeFeo was away for the evening and Butch was bugging out and this friend saw an amass of guns on the kitchen floor and how this friend had to sleep on Butch's floor in front of the door because Butch kept charging for the door throughout the night.

...so, who was the abuser, father or SON?

@Kathy, I think they married really young...which I guess was done back in the day. Maybe they were too young, but if as faithful as a Catholic Italian is/was, divorce was out of the question. They stuck it through. Admirable. But there must have been some semblance of love there. (Then again, this could be challenged considering my own folks LOL)

[Shawn]

"His mother would yell down and tell him to turn down the sterio, then they would usualy start yelling at each other"

No abuse, Ronnie's mother or Father never beat him up in front of his friends in this case.

How many "abused" kids yell at their abusive parents???? That's just insane. There was obviously NO fear of his parents in Butch what so ever. Abused my .......

[Victoria Principles]

The alleged incidents of abuse seemed to have come from Ronnie. Who else said anything other than the family being loud and screaming all the time?

The incident with Brigante I cant take as proof alone. This could have been a one time thing and we dont know the whole story from all that were there. I dont think the Brigantes thought much of Ronald Sr. anyway.

Here is a question: Did Ronald Sr. and Louise have to get married or did they get married young and then have Ronnie?

Incident's of abuse are almost always than a one time thing. Kathy, in case if you didn't know it, what Sr. did too his two year old son was a crime. He would go to prison for that today. What was the other side of the story? Two year old Ronnie Jr. attacked Ronnie Sr?

The Brigantes must have thought of Ronnie Sr. enough to give him a job and pay him much more than what most automotive service managers were making at the time.

[Victoria Principles]

"His mother would yell down and tell him to turn down the sterio, then they would usualy start yelling at each other"

No abuse, Ronnie's mother or Father never beat him up in front of his friends in this case.

How many "abused" kids yell at their abusive parents???? That's just insane. There was obviously NO fear of his parents in Butch what so ever. Abused my .......

Shawnie,

Has it ever occurred to you that Jr. was now strong enough and big enough to take on Sr? It's not unusual for people who were abused as kids to turn on their abusers and who they saw as enablers.

[kathyM]

I think the Brigantes helped Ronald Sr. with the job and the house more for Mrs. DeFeo and the children than for Ronald Sr.

Besides, wouldnt it look better for the family to others if the daughter (Mrs. DeFeo) and her family were living well?