The Jeremy Bamber thread

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
scipio-USMC
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by scipio-USMC » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:59 pm

There are numerous differences between Bamber and DeFeo

1) Bamber was not living with the victims

2) Bamber actively framed his sister at the time of the murders as opposed to Ron simply making up the claim years later.

3) There is no claim Dawn killed herself while Bamber’s sister was made ot look like she did

4) There was a struggle and only his nephews were killed while they slept.

5) We know the motive thanks to Bamber’s then girlfriend and his own behavior afterwards it was definitely to inherit the family’s wealth.

Those claiming Bamber is innocent ignore key facts and evidence.

1) His sister was definitely framed. Her father was shot upstairs then shot again as he ran down the stairs. A major struggle finally took place in the kitchen where the father was beaten over the head with the rifle and shot again. The kitchen floor was full of blood and flour among other things. So many bullets were fired that the gun was reloaded. The silencer and rifle scope were hidden in a kitchen cupboard.

A) His sister was too small to beat her 6’4” father in the manner claimed and especially without breaking any nails.

B) His sister had no evidence of handling bullets or firing a weapon beyond a single fingerprint which could have come from her hand being placed on the rifle after she was dead. If she was shooting it so much and beating her father with it she should have left more prints, particularly since she would have been sweating and in turn should have had evidence on her body of firing a weapon.

C) A moderator aka silencer in common parlance was used for some or all the killings. Blood the same type of his sister was found inside of it. Additionally blood of the parents was outside it and also possibly inside mixed with the sister’s. The reason why the silencer is so significant is because with the silencer attached the gun was too long for the sister to kill herself with it.

Bamber proponents claim a relative with the same blood type as the sister cut himself, put his own blood in the silencer and conspired with other relatives to then turn it in to police to frame Bamber. This doesn’t explain the parents’ blood though. Bamber’s proponents claim none of the blood should be trusted or alternatively argue she killed everyone with the silencer and scope in place. She then removed them, placed them in the cupboard closet, went back upstairs and killed herself.

This makes no sense though, if she discovered the gun was too long to kill herself with then why would she bring it downstairs and hide it in the closet as opposed to leaving it in the room where she killed herself?

D) His sister’s feet would have been covered in blood and flour had she been in the kitchen struggling with her father and if she then walked from the kitchen back upstairs to kill herself then she would have left footprints in blood and flour leading from the kitchen upstairs. Bamber proponents have come up with photos of feet that have something on them but it is not a sure thing it is blood. They claim it is her feet and definitely blood. It could just be some dirt. If it were blood then it is at most small droplets, which is not consistent with walking in blood. When you step in blood it doesn’t form droplets and her feet should have had flour as well. It is not a sure thing the photos are really her mind you but if so the ones shown definitely do not support the claim of walking through blood and flour because her feet would have been coated, her footprints would have been found in the kitchen in such blood, and footprints leading from the kitchen upstairs would have been found.

E) Bamber is the only one who claims his sister even knew how to use a gun. According to other relatives and acquaintances she never had any interest in touching a gun and there is no evidence she had any idea how to use one let alone reload it and know the silencer and scope come off.

F) Despite her mental problems, his sister was not violent aside from the typical womanly throwing of plates and such. Her anger was never directed at her kids though and no one believes she could ever have harmed them. She had a good relationship with her father and her therapists and others indicate it was her mother that she had a problem with.

G) Bamber claims his father called him on the phone to report the daughter was acting crazy and threatening him with a gun and that his father then stopped talking and it sounded like the phone fell from his hand. He has given multiple different accounts of what he did in response. He originally claimed he called his girlfriend after phoning police but other times admitting he immediately called his girlfriend. He then called police twice. He called a second time to complain about their slow action. He then drove to the farmhouse which should have taken 3 minutes. He drove as slow as molasses though so that police would pass him and beat him there. In all likelihood he stopped his car and waited for them and then slowly started driving again so they could beat him there. The scene was staged so that the kitchen phone was on the floor off the hook.

i. A big problem is that the defense was unable to find any phone record to prove the father made a call. Surely the telephone company could have proved the call was made had it actually been made. The defense could not obtain any proof the only proof they submitted was Bamber’s unsupported allegation

ii. The mother was shot upstairs as was the father. She was immobilized while he wasn’t he thus was able to go down stairs to try to reach the telephone. The kitchen phone was in for repairs so the bedroom phone was temporarily being used in the kitchen. If he actually managed to dial and talk before being killed then:

Why would he call a son he didn’t trust and didn’t get along with instead of the police? There is a substantial amount of evidence that they had a troubled relationship and distrust. His son was a criminal despite his parents doing so much for him.

Worse yet, if he had called then why wouldn’t he tell his son that he was shot and so was his mother and thus they needed medical help. Why just say she got the gun and he was scared about what she would do?

This is a big deal. If his father genuinely made the call claimed he would have stated he was shot. The framer wanted it to appear he was called before his sister actually shot anyone. He figured police would never figure out his father had already been shot upstairs. But the evidence proves the father was shot upstairs first then downstairs. What evidence? Blood and more importantly the spent shell casings! The casings provide evidence of how many shots were fired where. If his father made the phone call claimed then he would have noted he was shot not say his daughter had a gone and he was scared of what she would do with it.

iii. If his father dropped the phone as claimed then it would have taken several minutes before the connection would have cleared and he could have called anyone. Yet he claims he immediately called police (later admitting he called his girlfriend first). His phone would be stuck because of the open connection. He should have been able to hear some of the struggle. Why didn’t he drive the 3 minutes to the house? Why would he wait several minutes for the phone to clear to be able to use it and why didn’t he know about this wait and admit it? Obviously because the story was false. He didn’t realize there would have been a break before he could have dialed anyone.

iii. Why did he call his girlfriend before the police? Obviously he called her as part of his cover story. This way she could confirm he called her saying he was worried. By rights he should not have woken her at all or at the very least done so after learning his parents were killed and then waking her because he was upset. She claims during this conversation that he told her he hired a killer that killed his parents. He previously told her he would like the burn the place down to kill them all. His supporters say he was upset so he called her first. That makes no sense he would have no reason to be so upset as to wake her in the middle of the night unless he already knew they were shot. His proponents also claim she was lying to get back at him. If she was lying to hurt him then why wouldn’t she say he confessed to killing them himself? Instead she said he told her he hired a hitman. Her story is credible. He didn’t want her to know he had it in him to kill personally so he made up hiring a hitman. For her to make up the claim and also make up a hitman who could deny doing it is silly if she wanted him falsely convicted. She would say he confessed to personally doing it if that was her objective.


Ok so let’s go through the frame job and how Bamber asserts things went down:
1) He left a loaded rifle on the kitchen table and hours later it was still there for his sister to grab and threaten her father with (makes a lot of sense to leave it on the table right? And for the family to leave it there with two little 6 year old boys in the house) This account is to explain why his prints were on the rifle and bullets and how the gun was able to be accessed by his sister)

2) She threatens him with it so he calls his son to say she is threatening him with a rifle then gets cut off as she attacks him. What could his son do that he couldn’t? His father was a big strong guy (6’4”) and had a good relationship with the daughter while Bamber didn’t have a good relationship with his sister.

3) She kills him in the kitchen then goes upstairs and kills her mother and kids.

4) She goes downstairs again, removes the scope and moderator, hides them in a cupboard

5) She goes back upstairs to kill herself

6) In the meantime after the call Bamber calls his girlfriend. He then calls police twice complaining they are taking so long. He has a 3 minute drive to the house but drives an inch a minute so that police can beat him there. He knows the latch is broken on 1 of the windows and even knows how to open the latches on the other windows to get inside without a key but makes police wait for hours before they get inside instead of going inside himself or opening the window so they could get in.

His proponents have a lot of explaining to do but fail to ever do so. Instead they want physical evidence tossed that doesn’t really disturb how none of this makes any sense. His actions make no sense at all and his father’s actions don’t either.

The actual way it went down is as follows: Everyone shot upstairs, father is the only one not killed, he manages to run to the kitchen where there is a major struggle, he is shot again and finally killed. Had he actually been able to dial anywhere he would have called the police most likely and would not have said his daughter was threatening him with a gun but rather had shot him and the others already.

His supporters have a lot of work to do as far as trying to establish he was wrongly convicted. The BS I have seen to date doesn’t come close. One of my favorites is the BS claim that the father phoned police before he phoned his son. Bamber tries to claim his father made 1 call to police. Yet the record of the phone call clearly indicates he made the call not his father.

Something not mentioned by anyone is that it is quite possible that Ron learned of the murders and that this helped shape his new story to some degree including the made up phone call claims of being summoned because the sister was going crazy. Those claims are actually somewhat similar. Of course Bamber actually lived minutes away whereas DeFeo falsely claimed he lived hours away. The funny thing is that it didn’t work for Bamber so if he did allow it to inspire him that was ominous of where it would lead for him.

scipio-USMC
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by scipio-USMC » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:14 pm

The police log the defense misrepresents as being fromt he father:

The log is headed "daughter gone berserk"

"Mr Bamber, White House Farm, Tolleshunt d’Arcy – daughter Sheila Bamber, aged 26 years, has got hold of one of my guns. Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after phone went dead. Mr Bamber has a collection of shotguns and .410s,telephone number 860209. The final entry says: 0356 GPO [the telephone operator] have checked phone line to farmhouse and confirm phone left off hook."

The log shows that a patrol car, Charlie Alpha 7 (CA7), was sent to the scene at 3.35 am


---

Ok so it says the message was passed by the son. The son clearly told all of the guns the father had. The son gave the phone number of the house for them to confirm the phone was off the hook.

To what rational person does this suggest that the dead father made the call not the son?

This is just one of the BS things used to try to suggest he is innocent.

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by sherbetbizarre » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:26 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:Something not mentioned by anyone is that it is quite possible that Ron learned of the murders and that this helped shape his new story to some degree including the made up phone call claims of being summoned because the sister was going crazy. Those claims are actually somewhat similar.
I did kind of hint at that in my July 23rd post ;)

Was Ronnie using this story before his interview with Christopher Berry-Dee in the mid-80's? Because Berry-Dee - who was based in the UK - could have told him about the Bamber case and planted the seed...

scipio-USMC
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by scipio-USMC » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:26 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:Something not mentioned by anyone is that it is quite possible that Ron learned of the murders and that this helped shape his new story to some degree including the made up phone call claims of being summoned because the sister was going crazy. Those claims are actually somewhat similar.
I did kind of hint at that in my July 23rd post ;)

Was Ronnie using this story before his interview with Christopher Berry-Dee in the mid-80's? Because Berry-Dee - who was based in the UK - could have told him about the Bamber case and planted the seed...
I am not sure when he interviewed Ron. But it sure looks to me like someone told him about it and since people like to compare it to Amityville I find it hard to believe that such didn't make its way back to Ron. Prior to his 1986 Newsday interview, Ron didn't suggest anything even remotely close. When you consider that there was so much publicity about this in 1985 and then 1986 is when he comes out with his revision the timing is uncanny. Of course he added something that Bamber did not, a witness who could confirm he didn't commit the murders- Richard Romondoe. Since Dawn can't possibly had committed suicide he had to change things up a little and attributed most of the deaths to his mother. That didn't work so he changed in 1990 to be much closer to the Bamber case claiming Dawn killed everyone except herself and that he killed her by accident. I can't help but think that either his 1986 or 1990 account was at least a little bit inspired or influenced by the Bamber case. It seems odd that Ron was too stupid to think up any of it for decade and then it just suddenly hit him like a stroke of genius.

scipio-USMC
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by scipio-USMC » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:48 pm

Just found this article evidently I got it wrong a little bit about the phone.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... riter.html

He didn't move the phone from the bedroom to the kitchen until after the murders.

He took the phone off the hook so that no one could dial out from upstairs. Then after the murders he hid the kitchen telephone and plugged in the bedroom phone. He used the excuse that while the cordless was the kitchen phone and while it was being repaired the bedroom phone was being used in the kitchen.

This is actually even more damning.

Ok so father is shot 4 times. He runs downstairs to the kitchen because the phone is off the hook and he can't dial police. Killer chases him but is out of bullets. Killer bashes man 6'4" over head with rifle till he is unconscious. Then reloads and shoot him until he is dead.

Frankly the skinny, shorter daughter's only hope against him would be to keep shooting him. The notion she could knock him out with the rifle is pretty ridiculous and instead of worrying about the phone he would be busy disarming her.

For her part, why would she be so desperate to stop him from using the phone? Her priority would have been to reload so she could shoot him some more. She planned to kill herself so why would she care if he called police? She would surely kill herself before they had a chance to arrive.

But it gets worse. She then removed the silencer and possibly shot her father again to cause a direct contact burn, hid the silencer in the cupboard so no one would know it was used and then went to the bedroom and shot herself. That makes sense how? Why would she be concerned with hiding the silencer?

scipio-USMC
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by scipio-USMC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:40 pm

Andrew_J wrote:I have looked into this case in great detail and spoken to many of Bamber's associates who are campaigning for his freedom. Based on the evidence I have no doubt that he is innocent. Unlike Ronald DeFeo Jr, Jeremy Bamber has never once changed his version of events and reading up on the actual evidence and the recently discovered discrepancies regarding the crime scene and the police investigation it's extraordinary that the conviction still stands. The truth of the matter is that no one who is part of the Essex police force or UK government wants this man to be cleared because the repercussions would be enormous, it would be considered the biggest miscarriage of justice in British history. However Bamber has attracted the support of many local Members of Parliament and journalists, so there is a certain momentum gathering in the UK.

There are similarities with the DeFeo murders but there's one big difference. Bamber didn't do it. IMO
What evidence suggests his innocence? The majority of claims made by his supporters are in fact lies and intentional distortions. The most prominent lies are: 1) that the silencer was received into evidence later than the date it was tested (the silencer was relabeled 3 times and his supporters falsely claim the date of the last relabel is the date it was actually recovered and claim each label is a different silencer though this was proved manifestly false) 2) that there were 2 bodies in the kitchen but the female body was relocated to the bedroom (this lie relies on an officer originally thinking Neville was an old lady not man and easy to see here is nothing to it because Jeremy went through the scene and would have noticed had there been 2 bodies) 3) the lie that Neville called police himself (the log makes clear the son called and was supposedly quoting his father) and 4) the lie that the crime scene photos prove the fireplace mantle was not damaged (the photos relied on were taken far away from the mantle and show the entire room, the phoos showing the damage are closeups that show the underneath where it was damaged)

As for his statements he did in fact change detials and much of what he claimsed is out and out absurd and supporters are unable to explain it away.

A major lie he told police he contradicted in court. He told police that she was very proficient with weapons and had fired all the weapons in the house. He also listed all the weapons which made the unarmed police fearful to enter and even spooked the armed police enough that they took hours to enter. The family, friend sand farm workers testified Sheila had no interest in firearms, that they never saw her touch a firearm and do not think she knew how to fire one. Jeremy testified that he had not seen her fire any weapon as an adult but that when they were young children she went target shooting with him so knew how to use a gun. The guns at the farm at the time of the murders were all guns obtained while she was an adult. The murder weapon was acquired in 1984 when she was 27. His testimony that he had not seen her fire a gun as an adult means he can't have sene her fire any of the guns in the house. So that means he lied when he told police she fired every weapon in the house and was proficient. Whether she fired a weapon as a child is unknown, the only one who claims such is Jeremy. Even if true that doesn't mean she would know how to use the murder weapon. The gun she used as a child (if she used one) could have been so different that she would not have known how ot chamber a round let alone to load a magazine and release the magazine to then reload it. Foir instance a bolt action gun is much different from a semi-auto like the murder weapon. She could have loaded a magazine then tried to fire and had no idea why it would not shoot. That is what happened to Squeaky Fromme when she tried to kill the president. She didn't know she had to chamber a round before pulling the trigger she thought you just load the clip and then you can pull the trigger. I don't even know where the magazine release is on the murder weapon I would have to inspect it to figure it out. Just from photos it is not obvious. I know how to chamber a round generally on it but am not sure how the action is on the charging handle I would have to do it to find out.

Why did he lie to police about this? Obviously this lie had 2 purposes. 1) to make police scared to enter and the hours lost mad eit more difficult to fix the times of death. 2) so police would believe she committed the murders. If she didn't know how to use a gun then the notion she was able to load the gun 3 times and fire 25 shots without a single miss would be highly suspect.

He also lied about calling the police before his girlfriend. He admitted later that he called her before police.

Other details didn't change but make absolutely no sense at all like the claim his father called him to come over to help instead of calling the authorities and not even mentioning that he had been shot but rather asserting she had a gun and he was scared she would use it. By the time he reached the kitchen (where he supposedly phoned from) he had already been shot 5 times.

Instead of making a 3 minute drive he calls his girlfriend and then police and absolutely refuses to go over until police are there first. Then instead of going inside when police refuse to go inside he hangs out with police for hours chatting calmly.

Neville didn't even trust his son with keys to the house. He gave keys to peopel who worked for him but no this own son. That says something. But he calls his son after being shot instead of 999?

In the meantime like Dawn, Sheila had no gunshot residue or any other evidence of having fired a weapon nor any signs of having been involved in a struggle though the killer struggled with Neville so fiercely that part of the rifle stock broke off. He had a broken nose, blakc eyes etc.

Sorry but his story is as bad as Ron's which is why he was convicted.




Firing a weapon

All the weapons in the house were

scipio-USMC
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Re: The Jeremy Bamber thread

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:26 pm

This is a good place for people interested in the Bamber case:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=6.0

I had some fun stirring up trouble there in my signature fashion.

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