Ric Osuna's Seventh Body photo

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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Deadguydan
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Post by Deadguydan » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:53 am

Very interesting!

After looking at the photo again.....*insert sarcasm*......boy that was fun!

I believe that body could possibly the murdered girl from the other homicide a week after the DeFeo murders. If you look at the picture without knowing about the other murders, the victim looks as if her face was disfigured by a gun shot wound.....BUT if you look at it again knowing about the girl being stabbed you can see the blood on her chest, somewhat obscured by the sheet, and realize that the right side of her face is obscured by her hair.....not because it was blown away. I think I was getting some of my info mixed up because it was Dawn whose face was disfigured by a gunshot and that body is that of a younger girl which fits the description of the girl that was stabbed and that of Allison DeFeo.

Ya know I had wanted to read Rics book but now Im not sure if I do. It seems like everything this guys says about the murders and the investigation come out to be a crock of crap!!

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Dan the Damned
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Post by Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:01 am

evanguy2004 wrote:What do you think Ric's motive was to make something like this up? To sell more of his books?
Well that's the million-dollar question - did Ric purposely set out to deceive, or did he honestly believe what he wrote about the 7th body and the Lutzes?

Ric claims he found that photo mixed-in with the DeFeo crime scene photos. But if this was such a big deal, why didn't he do one ounce of investigation into it? I don't see any mention of Ric asking anyone at the police station about it. Did Ric ever attempt to interview any of the cops at the scene of the crime? Or the medical examiners?

I really don't know Ric at all, except from his actions (his website, his book and his old posts). And I honestly don't know if he is merely a horrible investigator with an agenda, or if he is simply making up crap...

He still seems to believe in the validity of Geraldine Gates (who claimed she was married to Ronnie since before the murders), even though she has been shown to be a total fraud. Again, is that a sign of dishonesty, or his being very gullible?

I tend to think its a little bit of both. I think maybe its a subconscious thing that makes him want to believe the evidence goes one way. And I think that was the case back when he actually believed in the haunting, as well. I guess you could say I don't think he believed for the right reasons...

But yeah, if he was totally making it up, then I'd guess that the reason would be to sell more copies of his book.

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Post by evanguy2004 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:10 pm

Dan,

What is Ric up to these days? Last I heard he was still writing horror type books. Has he surfaced recently with any updates or stories on Amityville? Or has he moved on.

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Post by shank » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:54 pm

A) He's kicking over rocks and looking for more friends and witnesses to the Defeos
B) He's on Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe sucking out septic tanks, looking for more friends/wives and witnesses/pictures of the Defeos.....witch, unfortunately, Mike resigned. (It was too dirty to work with Ric!)
C) Please add your own......

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Dan the Damned
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Post by Dan the Damned » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:51 pm

evanguy2004 wrote:What is Ric up to these days? Last I heard he was still writing horror type books. Has he surfaced recently with any updates or stories on Amityville? Or has he moved on.
Are you sure you're asking about Ric Osuna? I haven't heard of him writing any horror books. "The Night the DeFeos Died" is his one and only book.

I think you might be mixing Ric up with someone else...

Ric is helping to make a documentary on the DeFeo murders at the moment. A project that is years behind schedule, probably way over-budget (and which features Geraldine Gates posing as Ronnie's real-life bride - so it might be wildly inaccurate as well)...

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Dutchcolonial
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Post by Dutchcolonial » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:25 am

Dan the Damned wrote:Ric claims he found that photo mixed-in with the DeFeo crime scene photos.....
It goes further than that. He claimed he saw the strips of negatives, and that the "Seventh Body Photo" was actually on a strip of negatives of DeFeo crime scene photos. The argument that the photo was from another investigation at the time has merit, until you try to factor this in.

Dutch.
“From trees to boathouses, Ocean Avenue was a street of American dreams. And what happened at 112 was a suburban tragedy.” G. SULLIVAN

“I want no part of the world out there. As far as I’m concerned, out there, there is nothing but trouble, disease, animals. I want no part of the world. In here at night when we lock in, they lock us in the cells. I feel safe, that nobody is going to get me. I feel fine. I really like that…..” RJD, JR.,October 15, 1975

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Post by evanguy2004 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:05 am

Dan the Damned wrote:
evanguy2004 wrote:What is Ric up to these days? Last I heard he was still writing horror type books. Has he surfaced recently with any updates or stories on Amityville? Or has he moved on.
Are you sure you're asking about Ric Osuna? I haven't heard of him writing any horror books. "The Night the DeFeos Died" is his one and only book.

I think you might be mixing Ric up with someone else...

Ric is helping to make a documentary on the DeFeo murders at the moment. A project that is years behind schedule, probably way over-budget (and which features Geraldine Gates posing as Ronnie's real-life bride - so it might be wildly inaccurate as well)...
Yeah I might be thinking of Jay Anison. Now that I think of it didn't he go on to write other books such as on the devil and such? Sorry for the confusion

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Post by OrangeNblack » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:09 am

I think Ric made several changes in the book, "The Night The DeFeo's Died" everytime the book was re-released.
Not sure, but I think the book went through three changes.
When people think Ric has written other books, they don't realize it's the same book being "updated".
They think he has written several books.
He has people believing this since he mentioned it on his web site a few years ago that he has a new book coming out with "new" and "overlooked evidence".
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Post by OrangeNblack » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:11 am

Also....Gee, I fell for it!
I contacted Ric through email and told him how much I was looking forward to reading his book when he mentioned that he had written a book about the DeFeo's.
I sent Ric a whole lotta money to sign a copy for me.....gee, I was taken for ride!
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Post by ToxiMoron » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:32 pm

OrangeNblack wrote:Also....Gee, I fell for it!
I contacted Ric through email and told him how much I was looking forward to reading his book when he mentioned that he had written a book about the DeFeo's.
I sent Ric a whole lotta money to sign a copy for me.....gee, I was taken for ride!
Don't feel bad. The entire book seemed and read plausible to me also, until I read/saw the facts online. For all his faults, he's an OK writer. I really believed Dawn was involved, for a short period of time, along with Bobby Kelske.

What's next? I guess Butch will blame the CIA. Though, I'll believe that before the Dawn scenario. :roll:
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Dan the Damned
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Post by Dan the Damned » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:01 pm

Dutchcolonial wrote:
Dan the Damned wrote:Ric claims he found that photo mixed-in with the DeFeo crime scene photos.....
It goes further than that. He claimed he saw the strips of negatives, and that the "Seventh Body Photo" was actually on a strip of negatives of DeFeo crime scene photos. The argument that the photo was from another investigation at the time has merit, until you try to factor this in.
I agree. Seeing a photo of this "7th body" in the middle of a strip of negatives from the DeFeo crime scene - one would naturally assume that this photo was also from the DeFeo crime scene. And when you compare this photo with the crime scene/autopsy photos of the DeFeos, you can plainly see that this is not a member of the DeFeo family, so it would seem to be a 7th victim. And that's a big problem, because no "7th victim" was ever mentioned during the trial, or in Gerard Sullivan's book "High Hopes."

So we have a mystery. Who was this person? Why weren't they mentioned in court, or in Sullivan's tell-all book? It appears to be a child - did no one notice or care that this child went missing? Was this part of some ill-conceived plot by the police to plant evidence - a plan that they then gave-up on (since it wasn't used in court), forgetting to dispose of the photos in the process?

If Ric is correct about this photo being in the middle of a strip of negatives from the DeFeo crime scene - that would suggest this victim came from the DeFeo house. But seeing as neither the prosecutors nor William Weber mentioned any 7th victim during the trial, that would suggest that this photo did not come from the DeFeo house.

So which is it? Either it came from 112 or it didn't. Just with this information, alone, we have good evidence to support each possibility. So we need to take it further. And by saying that - I hope it doesn't seem like I'm talking down to Ken. Although I used Ken's post to start this reply, I'm really speaking to those who are unfamiliar with this aspect of the case...


The Evidence Supporting the 7th Body


The main evidence was mentioned above: Ric claimed that there was a photo of a "mysterious 7th body" on a stip of negatives containing pictures of the DeFeo crime scene. So what else do we have to support the theory that this picture was taken in the house?

In his book, Ric devotes a lot of space to possible corruption in the Suffolk County police department - a subject matter that both he and Tracey DeFeo share. In one edition of his book (echoed on his website), Ric mentions rumors that he heard concerning the police bringing-in a large garbage bag "full of something." Ric wonders aloud if the police brought back one of the DeFeo bodies to the crime scene "to plant evidence or acquire new photographs." Later he proclaims, "If this person was a DeFeo, then the photo lends further credence that the police tampered with evidence. If, however, this person truly was a seventh victim, then the coverup and ensuing corruption are unprecedented."

And I totally agree (if those scenarios are correct).

Initially, Ric believed this "mystery body" was, in fact, that of Dawn DeFeo. Ric claims that "according to friends and relatives of the DeFeos, the family had a spare bed in the basement," and he noted that the wood paneling on the walls of this photo resembled the wood paneling in the DeFeo's basement, and that the bed shown did not match the other beds in the DeFeo house.

Ric sent this photo to Christopher Berry Dee (in late 2001 or early 2002) to get his opinion on the matter. Chris and his team thought this was, indeed, a seventh victim. And they agreed that this must have been taken in the DeFeo's basement (stating it looked "identical or almost identical to the DeFeo basement")...

And that about wraps it up regarding evidence supporting this photo as being from the DeFeo crime scene:

1) a claim by Ric Osuna that the photo was part of a strip of negatives, with the other pictures being from the DeFeo crime scene

2) the similarities of the room in the photograph with the DeFeo's basement


The Evidence Against the 7th Body

The main evidence against this being a body from the DeFeo crime scene was mentioned above - the fact that it wasn't mentioned during the trial - neither by the prosecution or the defense. An argument could be made that if it was part of a police conspiracy, that the prosecution naturally wouldn't bring the matter up in court (perhaps changing their mind); and even though the defense had access to the crime scene photos as well, its possible that William Weber simply didn't catch it...

Aside from that, Maxwell wrote a great short article showing very strong evidence that this photo was not taken inside the DeFeo house. You can read it at:

http://www.amityvillehorrortruth.com/do ... thbody.htm

For the link-phobic among us, it shows that the DeFeos did not have a spare bedroom in the basement, despite what Ric Osuna was told by unnamed "family friends and relatives." The police took photos of the entire house that night, and covered the basement quite thoroughly.

Here is a simple diagram of the DeFeo basement. The area in the middle and to the right has a tiled floor (probably vinyl tiling) covered by rugs. The walls in these areas have wood paneling. The area to the left (marked "laundry" & "shelving") has a plain painted cement floor and contains no paneling on the walls.

Image


Here is the photo of the 7th body. I've censored the actual victim from the photo:


Image


That's so you know what we're looking for. Most notably, the wood paneling on the walls, and the window above the bed.

This laundry area couldn't possibly be the site of this photo, due to its lack of paneling on the walls. So let's get it out of the way by showing these quick 3 photos. The diagram on the left of each photo shows you the area of the basement you are viewing:


Image

Image

Image


And equally as obvious, the mid-section of the basement (while paneled) is too small. Here are pics of this area:


Image

Image

Image


So that leaves us with the most obvious area of the basement for this picture to have possibly been taken - the area mapped on the right - the one containing the pool table. Here are the pics of that area:


Image

Image

Image

Image


...and that's it. That's the entire basement. Here is the layout again:

Image

The red areas mark the sections of the basement shown in the photos above. That's pretty much all of it. No spare bedroom, as Ric's unnamed "DeFeo family friends and relatives" claimed. No window as shown in the 7th body photo. And honestly, no real space for a bed like that, unless they removed the pool table and disguised the basement to look like some other house. And what sense would that make? If it was supposed to look like it came from a different house, why bring the body into the DeFeo house? Especially when a crowd is outside watching your every move?


Conclusion


So where does that leave us? Looking over the photographic evidence, it certainly seems unreasonable to think the 7th body photo was taken in the DeFeo basement, and Ric agrees that the bed doesn't match any of the others in the house.

So how did that photo get onto the stip of DeFeo crime scene negatives? I can think of a couple of different possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Perhaps the original negatives were lost or damaged, and copies were made by taking photos of previous prints. This could lead to pictures of a different crime scene being inadvertently included in the new DeFeo negatives.

2) The 7th body photo might have been taken during another case, on the same roll of film. In Ric's book (and website) he states, "On the same strip of negatives were other scenes of the crime scene at 112 Ocean Avenue, including shots of Dawn DeFeo lying in bed. This fact alone suggested the photos were taken at approximately the same time or at least on the same roll of film." Why would Ric be so willing to suggest that this whole thing might simply be explained away as "crime scene pics from another location taken on the same roll of film"? Could it be that while the photos may be on the same strip of negatives, the DeFeo pictures are on one side and the 7th body is on the other? Does Ric state anywhere that on the strip of negatives, the 7th body photo is sandwiched in between DeFeo pics?

There are a few things I find odd about this whole 7th body issue. First of all, initially Ric doesn't make that big a deal about it. He writes it off as being a photo of Dawn (though in a different location). But anyone can clearly see that there is no resemblance at all between Dawn and the "7th body." The wounds are different; the bedclothes are different; the bloodstains on the bodies are different; the hair is different; the position of the arms and hands (while somewhat similar) are still different; even the eyebrows are different. This is clearly not Dawn - not by any stretch of the imagination.

Why didn't Ric see that? If he was going to make such a big deal about this photo, why didn't he take the time to examine each photo? This isn't Dawn, it isn't Allison, and it isn't one of the boys. It is clearly another victim.

Christopher Berry Dee and his team recognized this was not a DeFeo family member. And Ric states that he sent Chris one photo of the DeFeo's basement - so Chris and his team can be forgiven for suggesting this picture may have come from the same house...

Initially, Ric treated the 7th body photo as a sort of afterthought. It appeared at the very end of his book, just before the Acknowledgments section. This is where Ric explains how he felt this was a shot of Dawn, repositioned in a different bed. But its important to note that initially Ric talks about the 7th body photo as "one singular photo" (much as I have, here). In a later edition of the book, Ric expands his talk on the 7th body photo, and now says there were, in fact, three photos of this 7th body. In the edition I own, this brief 7th body section is almost verbatim as what you find today on his website:
"While viewing the crime scene negatives, I noted that there were three of the seventh victim in two different strips: twice on negative 17B1 and once as 20B2."
So I wonder, if this is such a big deal, why does Ric only show us one of the 3 photos? And why didn't he ask the police about this matter? Wouldn't you be curious to get an official statement from the police regarding this? But there is not a word in his book nor on his website about Ric asking anyone for an official explanation...

I can only conclude that Ric refuses to dig deeper into this matter because he realizes its a red herring after all. Not one planted by the Suffolk County police - but rather one perpetuated by Ric, himself, possibly in order to sell copies of the "new edition" of his book. I think Ric realized that the case supporting the 7th body is so weak, that any attempt to investigate it further would expose it as simply being another poor victim from another crime scene - possibly that of 11-year old Karen DeGennaro, who was stabbed in the chest in her Long Island bedroom a matter of days after the DeFeo massacre...

I think Ric simply wanted to keep an ongoing sense of mystery surrounding the DeFeo case in order for him to sell more books. I don't think he made it up out of thin air, however - I think there was an honest mix-up with the photos, and Ric made it into something it was not. Just like what he did with the stories from Geraldine Gates that he used as the basis for his whole book. Like he didn't want facts to get in the way of his agenda...

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Post by sherbetbizarre » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:27 pm

FANTASTIC post, Dan!
Dan the Damned wrote:...and that's it. That's the entire basement. Here is the layout again:

Image

The red areas mark the sections of the basement shown in the photos above. That's pretty much all of it.
I believe it was in August 2003, in a chat room, when Geraldine (Tsarena) and her friend Amityville112 (who shall remain nameless :P ) told everyone exactly where that bed was stored when those pics were taken... (the idea being the police returned to house with a body, and set the bed up themselves)

Image

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Post by OrangeNblack » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:35 pm

Chris Berry-Dee stated on his "pay" site that he and Ric with the help of Geraldine found evidence that the 7th body was a cousin of Dawn Defeo who stayed the night and slept in the basement.
But, he would NOT give any detail where this information came from; only that Geradine "suddenly" remembers there being a relative sleeping over the night the murders took place.

(I have a feeling this will probably be mentioned in this documentary/film/or-whatever-it-is.)
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Dan the Damned
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Post by Dan the Damned » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:43 pm

Ah, cool - thanks for that transcript Sherb! :D

So they talk about the mattress and headboard. But its really more than that - the headboard doesn't seem to be a seperate item - it seems to be part of the frame of the entire bed (including the 4 legs of the bed). And its not just one mattress, but clearly two. Not really a spare bed in the traditional sense of the word (like a foldaway bed or a cot)...

And I wonder where the rocking chair came from? And the window? Was the window stored in a box near the puzzles and board games?

Will this all be explained in the upcoming Katco movie??? Stay tune, spidey-fans!!! :shock:

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Matt16
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Post by Matt16 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:49 pm

If it was true that the 7th body was a cousin, what would be the reason for the cops to cover it up.

There are just to many people trying to get some fame from this whole case by releasing some over the top stories.

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Post by leathermonkey » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:17 pm

I read Ric's book, and I seem to remember him suggesting that the Police brought a body to the scene in a plastic trash bag or something... and staged it all. Then he doesnt bother explaining why. I got curious, checked his refrences in the book, and found there to be none for the more outlandish claims like this one. Dan pretty much said it right in his post.

Sorry Ric, but you
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Deadguydan
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Post by Deadguydan » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:40 am

1. Dan you presented one brilliant and common sense argument about the falseness of the 7th victim.

2. They dont make "hideaway" windows to go over a "hideaway" bed. :lol:

3. Leathermonkey that picture is hilarious!!

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Seventh Body

Post by Dutchcolonial » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:06 pm

It was an excellent post and one that is based on solid data. Well done, Dan.

I would, however, like to stand up for Blaine as there are several members of this forum who also enjoyed participating in his forum at the time of this chat transcript. He took much criticism for being only seventeen at the time. If it worked against him at the time, I think it should work in his favor now. It can't go both ways. At the time I, for one, respected his zeal because I would have never had the gumption to administer an internet forum at the age of seventeen (even if they had had them at the time I was seventeen). My point is, he was seventeen. Criticism for his belief in Osuna's version of the events of 11-13-74 were based upon the naivete of a juvenile. He has brought some serious attention to the genre, albeit some of it of a derogatory nature at the time of this transcript. I think he is still trying to contribute to the case today, even though he professes to believe that the haunting was a hoax.

At the time he was using the name NoRelation75, Shane was in the chat room nearly every morning chatting with Geraldine. For a time he believed her. I believed her, too, for a while. But I had just joined the board and didn't even know who Ric Osuna was when I joined. Until I learned otherwise, like all of us have in the interim, who was I do dispute her story?

My point is, we all grow. I for one would like to recognize that Blaine, and many others of us, have come a long way since then and tried to build our knowledge of the genre.

Dutch.
“From trees to boathouses, Ocean Avenue was a street of American dreams. And what happened at 112 was a suburban tragedy.” G. SULLIVAN

“I want no part of the world out there. As far as I’m concerned, out there, there is nothing but trouble, disease, animals. I want no part of the world. In here at night when we lock in, they lock us in the cells. I feel safe, that nobody is going to get me. I feel fine. I really like that…..” RJD, JR.,October 15, 1975

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Dan the Damned
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Post by Dan the Damned » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:19 pm

I hear ya. I wasn't around back when this stuff was going on - I just missed it, first coming to these parts in Dec 03. So I don't know exactly which photos were out there, or what was common knowledge, or what Blaine or anyone else had access to... But I don't see any mention of the 7th body on the new Amityfiles website (unless I missed it), so that says a lot.

But I do blame Ric for a lot of this. He had all the evidence in front of him. He had the connections. He had the ability to interview police officials about the apparent discrepancies. And for him to push ahead and release his book without doing any of this... well... I'll just leave it with "I still blame Ric for a lot of this"... :evil:

There needn't be a mystery over this photo. I bet some officer could look at it and remember/identify the crime scene.

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Post by leathermonkey » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:42 pm

Yeah Dan. I first got back interested in this case 5 years or so ago also. I saw a re-run of the movie (remembering how much it affected me as a child), searched Amityville, got Ric's site, bought Ric's book, discovered Ric's book was rubbish, and started searching for the real deal, eventually landing here. I'll credit Ric for that. It was Ozz that broke me on the old hoax board.. I remember that very well.

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PFFFFFFFT

Post by Dutchcolonial » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:11 pm

Dan the Damned wrote:.....But I do blame Ric for a lot of this. He had all the evidence in front of him. He had the connections. He had the ability to interview police officials about the apparent discrepancies. And for him to push ahead and release his book without doing any of this... well... I'll just leave it with "I still blame Ric for a lot of this"...
Well, isn't that the same thing Mrs. *cough, cough, cough, b_llsh_t, %#!*^?$* ummmmmm, "DeFeo" does on a daily basis?

*Here, I'm gonna flash up some documents which will show you this which adds up to 6, but I'm gonna claim to have documents that show it adds up to 8 and not show you the balance of the documents*

*cough, cough, cough, b_llsh_t, %#!*^?$*

Because there aren't any.

For all her gripes about Osuna, Mrs. *cough, cough, cough, b_llsh_t, %#!*^?$* "DeFeo" sounds alot like her gripes.

I think Amityville is dead.

Dutch.
“From trees to boathouses, Ocean Avenue was a street of American dreams. And what happened at 112 was a suburban tragedy.” G. SULLIVAN

“I want no part of the world out there. As far as I’m concerned, out there, there is nothing but trouble, disease, animals. I want no part of the world. In here at night when we lock in, they lock us in the cells. I feel safe, that nobody is going to get me. I feel fine. I really like that…..” RJD, JR.,October 15, 1975

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