A Somewhat Logical Question (DeFeo)

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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FoxyJ
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Post by FoxyJ » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:10 am

With the greatest respect, if there was a burial ground on just this tiny spot that did not encroach upon either strip of neighbouring land and that this tiny, elongated plot was used as an insane asylum, why then did it only affect the rather nice and, in the scheme of things, modern Dutch Colonial?

To my knowledge no one but the unfortunate DeFeo family members died in that place. I know that the late Mr. and Mrs. Lutz claim they had to leave because they were afraid for their personal safety but neither close neighbour knew (or admitted to knowing) of their problems. They certainly weren't aware of any burial ground in between their two properties and neither is there any official record of such.

From all that I have read, it is only those who make a living out of such assumptions who say that there were evil spirits inhabiting that house and, sorry, but I don't believe a single word they say. The DeFeo family had their problems prior to arriving at Ocean Avenue so, just maybe they brought their private demons with them. If so, it would make a complete nonsense of the burial ground theory would it not?

Six people died that night and because the public was told, quite erroneously, that they were all shot "execution style" while face down asleep in their beds, many 'believers' assumed some supernatural force MUST have been involved.

(Until Mr. Weber concocted the story with RJD as an 'insanity' defence strategy, no mention of the supernatural had been made by anyone in connection with the property; at least, if they did, there is no record).

The FACTS show that the victims were NOT all asleep neither were they shot whilst ALL face down (some have asserted that this has to do with the way Native Americans would have laid their insane/criminals).

There is also much speculation that someone other than the perpetrator came to the house after the murders and BEFORE the police arrived (during which period RJD had an alibi) and that it was that person or persons who 'altered' the crime scene.

That the scene WAS altered is evidenced by the position of Mrs. DeFeo, Dawn and Allison, all of whom had been covered up AFTER they had been shot and at least in the case of Dawn's room a good deal of cleaning up of blood had been done.

The whole DeFeo murder case has been 'muddied' by the tales of demonic possession and subsequent haunting alleged by others - so much more interesting to the general public and the 'Hollywood' moguls than the slaughter of six unfortunate people in their own home that would have been long forgotten otherwise.

I came to this murder case convinced that RJD had in fact gone from room to room shooting his entire immediate family and felt the same horror that everyone did at the time. I believed without question everything the press and police had to say about the case.

I did not know that there had been so many irregularities in the procedures preceding the trial of RJD, neither did I know that evidence had been concealed/lost/mislaid.

I had no knowledge of any organized crime involvement with the family/families concerned. I did not know that Dawn DeFeo's post mortem showed she was probably killed some time after her other family members nor did I know of the possibility of GSR being found on her nightgown that might show her involvement.

None of the above affects my life in any way and is really none of my business other than I have always loathed injustice of any kind whether it be for the victims or their killer/s. That is why I won't allow myself to be side-tracked by talk of demons and ghosts in this case.

All that interests me is why the prosecution and investigating police even to this day refuse to release items of evidence for modern forensic testing to show whether or not a convicted killer is actually a child-killer or not.

It is perfectly fine for anyone to speculate whether reflections and shadows are the faces of supernatural beings (in the case of the Newsday Photograph) that are sharing the house with the crime scene investigators and police, but I just hope that those same people won't confuse their own interests with the real horror that inhabited that house on the night those poor victims met their maker.

I never take the word of ANYONE involved in this case who has made one single penny from the death of the DeFeo family, and I mean ANYONE: I am only interested in the FACTS.

As we all know, RJD has colluded with at least two women of dubious character who have their own agendas in this case and, for me, that merely shows him to be a weak character who is easily influenced by others, in particular strong women.

If one sorts his wheat from his chaff the facts tell us that without a shadow of a doubt RJD DID kill both his parents and also his sister Dawn. Whether or not he killed his younger siblings is a matter of considerable conjecture and not without good reason in view of the outcome of the eighties investigation into the police department concerned and Mr. Weber's admission that he concocted a 'story' in a failed attempt to explain away his client's actions as 'insanity' and, later, with the Lutz couple for reasons about which I won't speculate on this board.

Until the outstanding questions regarding the GSR allegedly found on Dawn's nightgown, the results of her post mortem and the missing results of the paraffin test allegedly taken from her hands, we cannot know for certain that RJD IS a child-killer and, for me, that is now the most important factor in the case.

Fox
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sherbetbizarre
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Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:52 am

FoxyJ wrote:With the greatest respect, if there was a burial ground on just this tiny spot that did not encroach upon either strip of neighbouring land and that this tiny, elongated plot was used as an insane asylum, why then did it only affect the rather nice and, in the scheme of things, modern Dutch Colonial?
Yeah, it doesn't make too much sense it would be under the one house. Those that saw the old maps at the Amityville Historical Society (before they went missing!) say there was a burial ground "on the property" but not exclusive to 112 as far as I'm aware.
Six people died that night and because the public was told, quite erroneously, that they were all shot "execution style" while face down asleep in their beds, many 'believers' assumed some supernatural force MUST have been involved.
They were all found in their beds - so the mystery remains, why did not one victim attempt to flee?
(Until Mr. Weber concocted the story with RJD as an 'insanity' defence strategy, no mention of the supernatural had been made by anyone in connection with the property; at least, if they did, there is no record).
But the insanity defence had nothing to do with the paranormal!
That the scene WAS altered is evidenced by the position of Mrs. DeFeo, Dawn and Allison, all of whom had been covered up AFTER they had been shot and at least in the case of Dawn's room a good deal of cleaning up of blood had been done.
Isn't this speculation?

As to the three of them "covered up AFTER they had been shot" - this is the first I've ever heard of such a suggestion!
If one sorts his wheat from his chaff the facts tell us that without a shadow of a doubt RJD DID kill both his parents and also his sister Dawn. Whether or not he killed his younger siblings is a matter of considerable conjecture and not without good reason in view of the outcome of the eighties investigation into the police department concerned and Mr. Weber's admission that he concocted a 'story' in a failed attempt to explain away his client's actions as 'insanity' and, later, with the Lutz couple for reasons about which I won't speculate on this board.
Fox
You're more than welcome to discuss whether the Lutzes colluded with Weber. I don't believe reports that Weber "hired" the Lutzes, etc.

Yes, he later claimed he help make up the horror story - but only from 1976, after he met the Lutzes, and not at the trial.

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ozz
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Post by ozz » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:59 am

You're more than welcome to discuss whether the Lutzes colluded with Weber. I don't believe reports that Weber "hired" the Lutzes, etc.
By Weber's admission, isn't he essentially admitting he is a liar and attempted to sway court decisions through these "lies"? I wonder why the state bar hasn't looked into these claims of his? But either way, can a self-proclaimed dishonest liar be trusted at all?

Was there any truth to the rumor that he claimed to have audio tapes of the collusion?

ozz

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Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:22 am

I don't he ever claimed he had these tapes, otherwise he would have presented them in court.

It was Ric or Geraldine who spread the rumour he had these tapes, and wanted some outragous sum of cash to part with them!

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Post by FoxyJ » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:33 am

So much evidence has been 'mislaid' on this case - I suppose the records are just one more example of someone's incompetence.

We can't possibly know whether or not one or more of the family members attempted to flee that night.

From the layout of the second floor, RJD and/or his accomplice (if there was such a person) would have been blocking the escape route as the parents' room was the scene of the first killings.

Allison's room was next to the master bedroom with just a small bathroom between the two. The boys' room was across the landing.

It would have been perfectly possible to have shot Allison as she was waking from a deep sleep: she would have been confused as to what she'd heard along the landing from her room. It would have taken very few seconds to fire off four shots from a Marlin and then pass straight along to Allison's room.

Only little John would have been able to leave his room easily as Marc was incapacitated. He would have been no challenge at all to a killer with a rifle and would have likely done exactly as he was told.

Dawn, it appears from her post mortem, may have been killed some time later so what her role (if any) was that night I, like all of us, can only speculate.

If she wasn't involved at all, it's perfectly possible she was frog-marched back up to her room (if she had come downstairs) and then shot. (We know from the forensic evidence and crime scene photographs (graphic ones) that she was shot in the back of her neck, behind her left ear, so was laying face downmost.

Having seen the graphic photographs, it appears to me to be quite evident that much cleaning up had been done (especially to the top end of Dawn's bed/wall/side table) and yet from Mr. Osuna's website photographs, the room appeared 'clean' and nothing could be seen of Dawn other than her hair on the pillow. Similar is also true of both Mrs. DeFeo and Allison.

So it is MY interpretation that Allison, Dawn and Mrs. DeFeo had been covered after death whether by RJD or another person I cannot know. I have, however, been told that Mrs. DeFeo had been covered and 'tucked in' by her own father later that day. Hearsay of course so I shan't be tempted to comment further.

Weber knew his client had very little chance of a lenient sentence and thus employed the tried and occasionally trusted, but rarely successful insanity ploy. He encouraged friends and acquaintances of RJD to attest to his irrational behaviour and persuaded RJD to co-operate with this. He did in fact 'suggest' that imaginary voices might have guided RJD in his actions that night but, unfortunately, an actor RJD was not!

I never intended to insinuate that Weber had colluded with the late Mr. and Mrs. Lutz either prior or during the trial. It seems perfectly logical for me to believe he DID collude with them later as shown in a video clip I saw on this board yesterday where he seems to be saying that he and the Lutzes concocted the haunting story together.

I do ask myself though, what kind of 'men of law' were those who sought to make money from the murder of that unfortunate family. Still, I suppose 'twas ever thus and always will be.

It is the haunting story that has confused so many people in regard to RJD's behaviour that fateful night. On this board there are STILL people who are prepared to believe he was possessed by entities attached to the property despite all the evidence to the contrary provided by both the man himself and those who were directly involved in his trial and changed their stories almost as many times as RJD himself.

The only part of RJD's story that has never changed since the seventies is that he claims he did NOT kill the children. He claims that he can't be sure that it was actually Dawn herself who killed them as he says that a third person may have been in the house that night.

I doubt we shall ever know the truth but there is enough disputed evidence in the case to warrant the considerable and continuing interest that many of us have.

Fox
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Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:02 am

FoxyJ wrote:He did in fact 'suggest' that imaginary voices might have guided RJD in his actions that night but, unfortunately, an actor RJD was not!
Can we be sure Weber suggested the voices... or could have Ronnie have come up with that on the spur of the moment?

I do agree "possession" stories have not helped us get to the bottom of the case. Again, Weber is to blame for his part in Holzer's Murder in Amityville book, which led to the movie Amityville 2:The Possession.

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Post by FoxyJ » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:
FoxyJ wrote:He did in fact 'suggest' that imaginary voices might have guided RJD in his actions that night but, unfortunately, an actor RJD was not!
Can we be sure Weber suggested the voices... or could have Ronnie have come up with that on the spur of the moment?

I do agree "possession" stories have not helped us get to the bottom of the case. Again, Weber is to blame for his part in Holzer's Murder in Amityville book, which led to the movie Amityville 2:The Possession.
None of us can be sure of anything in this case but had RJD suggested the 'voices' ploy, why on earth would he have said, when asked, that there were no such voices urging him to kill?

Fox
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Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:57 pm

FoxyJ wrote:It is the haunting story that has confused so many people in regard to RJD's behaviour that fateful night. On this board there are STILL people who are prepared to believe he was possessed by entities attached to the property despite all the evidence to the contrary provided by both the man himself and those who were directly involved in his trial and changed their stories almost as many times as RJD himself.
I don't know if Ronnie was "possessed" when he killed his family, but I doubt he would know, either.

They say an insane person doesn't know they are insane. So would a possessed person know they are possessed? Would possession be like insanity? Don't both involve a limited sense of "losing one's mind," at least temporarily?

The Lutzes stated they felt "controlled" to a certain extent while living in the house, but didn't realize it at the time - not until looking back at the events. So perhaps the same could be said for Ronnie? Perhaps he was being controlled and didn't realize it? Perhaps he still doesn't realize it. Perhaps the experience of slaughtering his entire family has scarred his mind sufficiently enough to where he is no longer in a position to ever realize it...

Like any of us, I don't know for sure what happened. No one does. And I wonder if even Ronnie does...

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Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:05 pm

FoxyJ wrote:None of us can be sure of anything in this case but had RJD suggested the 'voices' ploy, why on earth would he have said, when asked, that there were no such voices urging him to kill?
Maybe because it didn't work the first time, and now he needed to change his story. And if the "voices" ploy didn't fit in with the new story, it'd make him seem more credible if he could claim he was told by his attorney to say it.


But who knows. Maybe Weber did tell Ronnie to say that. The thing is, we can't prove it. We can't state for a fact that Weber told Ronnie to say that.

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Post by FoxyJ » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:07 pm

As I understand it, this was 'the first time,' but of course that's only hearsay and you are probably right.

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Post by Millergirl#4 » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:22 pm

FoxyJ wrote: The only part of RJD's story that has never changed since the seventies is that he claims he did NOT kill the children. He claims that he can't be sure that it was actually Dawn herself who killed them as he says that a third person may have been in the house that night.


Fox
Yes, you are right he did maintain this story BUT he also admitted to killing the children at othertimes, even describing the twiching of his youngest brothers leg after he shot him. Also 'if' he can't be sure that it was actually Dawn herself who killed them then why is this something that he was sure of at other times? I don't believe a word that comes from his mouth.

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Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:07 pm

FoxyJ wrote:None of us can be sure of anything in this case but had RJD suggested the 'voices' ploy, why on earth would he have said, when asked, that there were no such voices urging him to kill?

Fox
He definetly said them at least twice - once on the stand and once to a psychiatrist. But on one occasion he claimed it was the "voice of God", not some demon.

The reason he later denied it was because he was being asked if he heard demonic voices...

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Post by msmart112 » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:43 pm

FoxyJ wrote:I apologize then because I understood the spokesperson for the 'tribes in Amityville's past' said there was no truth in the burial ground/insane asylum/cursed land rumours and that the stories were spread by people with a vested interest.

I stand corrected.

Fox
So you're now saying that you misunderstood THE spokesperson...as in ONE person.

What about the MULTIPLE people who you referenced when you made this comment...

"I've certainly never read that 'massacred' Indians were an issue here, only that it's alleged the land may have been used to house the mentally ill; this has been strongly denied by representatives of the 'tribe' that lived in the Amityville area many moons ago."

...who were these other people (e.g. the "representatives")?

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Post by msmart112 » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:48 pm

FoxyJ wrote:There is also much speculation that someone other than the perpetrator came to the house after the murders and BEFORE the police arrived (during which period RJD had an alibi) and that it was that person or persons who 'altered' the crime scene.
What exactly would you say constitutes ?much speculation??
FoxyJ wrote:That the scene WAS altered is evidenced by the position of Mrs. DeFeo, Dawn and Allison, all of whom had been covered up AFTER they had been shot and at least in the case of Dawn's room a good deal of cleaning up of blood had been done.
Are you stating this as fact?or just suggesting that it?s ?possible??

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Post by FoxyJ » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:24 am

msmart112 wrote:
FoxyJ wrote:I apologize then because I understood the spokesperson for the 'tribes in Amityville's past' said there was no truth in the burial ground/insane asylum/cursed land rumours and that the stories were spread by people with a vested interest.

I stand corrected.

Fox
So you're now saying that you misunderstood THE spokesperson...as in ONE person.

What about the MULTIPLE people who you referenced when you made this comment...

"I've certainly never read that 'massacred' Indians were an issue here, only that it's alleged the land may have been used to house the mentally ill; this has been strongly denied by representatives of the 'tribe' that lived in the Amityville area many moons ago."

...who were these other people (e.g. the "representatives")?
I have read several accounts on the net of both the 'legends' and the 'facts' about the Dutch/British/Indian relationship on Long Island and several different so-called 'representatives' have given their opinions on whether or not that particular piece of land was used as an insane asylum and/or burial ground and one opinion in particular comes to mind.

Might I respectfully suggest that you do the same if, of course, you haven't already read all these accounts? They really are quite an historical eye-opener.

Fox
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Post by FoxyJ » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:48 am

msmart112 wrote:
FoxyJ wrote:There is also much speculation that someone other than the perpetrator came to the house after the murders and BEFORE the police arrived (during which period RJD had an alibi) and that it was that person or persons who 'altered' the crime scene.
What exactly would you say constitutes ?much speculation??
Many people involved in the DeFeo investigation have much to say regarding whether or not the crime scene was 'altered' and by whom. I have read the opinions of those who either agree or disagree. These opinions are, in my view, "Speculation." You may, of course, have a completely different interpretation of the word.
FoxyJ wrote:That the scene WAS altered is evidenced by the position of Mrs. DeFeo, Dawn and Allison, all of whom had been covered up AFTER they had been shot and at least in the case of Dawn's room a good deal of cleaning up of blood had been done.
Are you stating this as fact?or just suggesting that it?s ?possible??
I believe that it is a FACT that the scene was 'altered.' For example, Mrs. DeFeo was covered by an uncontaminated blanket; how could two bullets have passed through this blanket without leaving any signs? The ballistic evidence also shows that Mrs. DeFeo was shot at close range evidenced by the blackening surrounding the wounds; could this be possible without marking the blanket covering her? You, of course, may have a completely logical explanation for such a phenomenon.

In the 'sanitized' (for want of a better word) crime scene photographs, where is the blood spatter? Why was Dawn's headboard not covered in the same kind of blood and matter that was in evidence beneath her head on her nightgown and on her bedding? Someone cleaned the headboard: was it RJD? Who covered the bodies of Dawn and Allison so that only their hair was showing above their (clean) blankets? Whoever it was clearly "Altered" the crime scene.

You, of course, may disagree if you wish and I would be pleased to hear your interpretation of those photographs and why no sign of the terrible act was visible.

Until somebody comes up with a better (but please not supernatural) reason for this 'clean' crime scene, I shall continue in my belief that it is a FACT that it was 'altered.

RJD has an alibi for his whereabouts during the day following the killings and it is during this time that I have been told 'others' were inside the house - more than this I shall not say here.

Fox
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Post by msmart112 » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:51 pm

FoxyJ wrote:In the 'sanitized' (for want of a better word) crime scene photographs, where is the blood spatter? Why was Dawn's headboard not covered in the same kind of blood and matter that was in evidence beneath her head on her nightgown and on her bedding? Someone cleaned the headboard: was it RJD?
A possible reason that Dawn?s headboard was not covered with blood was because the angle of the shot was downward. Also, her pillow very well (and more than likely) cushioned the impact.

Had there been this massive spatter as you believe?it certainly would have covered the surrounding bed sheet and pillow. Those could NOT have been cleaned?

Image
FoxyJ wrote:I believe that it is a FACT that the scene was 'altered.' For example, Mrs. DeFeo was covered by an uncontaminated blanket; how could two bullets have passed through this blanket without leaving any signs? The ballistic evidence also shows that Mrs. DeFeo was shot at close range evidenced by the blackening surrounding the wounds; could this be possible without marking the blanket covering her? You, of course, may have a completely logical explanation for such a phenomenon.
Who told you that there were NO signs of the bullets passing through Mrs. DeFeo?s blanket?

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Millergirl#4
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Post by Millergirl#4 » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:29 pm

wow interesting......there is the sheet with bullet holes. Good find.

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Post by radiomixer » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:26 pm

Max :)
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Post by FoxyJ » Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:57 am

As I understand it, there were no bullet holes in the blanket that was covering Mrs. DeFeo when the police arrived, which tells me (if true of course) that a fresh blanket had been placed on top of all her other bedding.

Naturally I could have been told a falsehood but have no reason to suppose this.

Regarding the lack of blood spatter on Dawn's headboard, it is unlikely that a downward shot would have made absolutely no spatter pattern whatsoever; in any case from my reading of the post mortem results the trajectory of the bullet tells me that the shot did not come from above but I'm not an expert. The bullet entered from just below the left ear and exited above the left eye (roughly) this seems to show that the bullet was fired from fairly low down.

There is also a rather poor photograph of the crime scene that shows a CSI examining the headboard closely.

Fox
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Post by msmart112 » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:34 am

FoxyJ wrote:As I understand it, there were no bullet holes in the blanket that was covering Mrs. DeFeo when the police arrived, which tells me (if true of course) that a fresh blanket had been placed on top of all her other bedding.
Well, as you can see in my last post?the police did indeed take in the blanket and sheet from the top of Mrs. DeFeo. And from the supporting diagrams?you can see that there were two holes in both the blanket and the sheet.

Had a fresh blanket been placed on top of Mrs. DeFeo before the police arrived?why did the police find (and take into evidence) a blanket and sheet with holes in them?
FoxyJ wrote:There is also a rather poor photograph of the crime scene that shows a CSI examining the headboard closely.
Examining the headboard closely? Maybe he was examining Dawn closely?

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