Some Questions About Dawn

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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kblur77
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Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:10 pm

A few items I have had in the back of my head so I'll just put them out here.

If Dawn had no Billy D. or any other boyfriend then what about this v-swipe that was done on her and it was said that she had done the nasty before the murders? Is there any truth to this or just another lie that got put out there from Osuna & Savive? If true then who could it have been?

Is there truth to this phony holdup she was supposed to have staged or just more nonsense? Could she have wanted to just go to Florida for a vacation with B. Nonnewitz and Ron added to this later on?

scipio-USMC
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:02 pm

kblur77 wrote:A few items I have had in the back of my head so I'll just put them out here.

If Dawn had no Billy D. or any other boyfriend then what about this v-swipe that was done on her and it was said that she had done the nasty before the murders? Is there any truth to this or just another lie that got put out there from Osuna & Savive? If true then who could it have been?

Is there truth to this phony holdup she was supposed to have staged or just more nonsense? Could she have wanted to just go to Florida for a vacation with B. Nonnewitz and Ron added to this later on?
I recall Savive actually consulting ballistic experts who confrimed she had not fired a gun so I don't know what you mean about Savive. He did leave some of the Osuna crap in his book but dispelled others.

There is no indication of her doing anything out of the ordinary before she went to bed and was murdered in bed. For that reason Ron could not think up a way to blame her. Years later after the Davidges moved to Florida he thought up the lie of Dawn being in love with Davigde and wanting to move to Florida as an excuse for Dawn fighting with her father and killing him.

It took a decade for DeFeo to think up lies to blame it on others in his family and his initial tale blamed Dawn for killing Ron Sr and Louise was so upset she killed Dawn and all the kids except Ron then went back to bed to kill herself. The suggesiton Louise was invovled was was received very poorly by the public so he changed it to Dawn killing them all and elminate dhis mother's role. That alone should clue people in that he was just making crap up.

While it is possible she said she wanted to go on vacation and the Nonnewitzes lied about it and misrepresented it as her wanting to move there to be with her boyfriend, more likely the Nonnewitzes simply lied in total and she didn't mention Florida at all. They lied either way but probably lied period.

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msmart112
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by msmart112 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:21 pm

kblur77 wrote:If Dawn had no Billy D. or any other boyfriend then what about this v-swipe that was done on her and it was said that she had done the nasty before the murders? Is there any truth to this or just another lie that got put out there from Osuna & Savive?
Rick Moran mentioned this in his pathetic 2004 Fortean Times article...
Rick Moran wrote:Investigators told of two other factors that significantly shape the case. Firstly, there were signs that Dawn had had sexual intercourse that night; and secondly, when divers recovered the rifle from the water off the point at Great South Bay, it was both loaded and cocked.
Rick Moran wrote:But - if there were no other visitors to the house that evening - who was Dawn's lover? The most likely answer comes from one of her old Brooklyn friends, who told NYPD investigators that Butch was very protective of his younger sister. He disliked Dawn's boyfriend, who had recently moved to Florida, once threatening to kill him if he continued to pursue his sister.
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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:17 pm

It was in Savive's book along with the incest thing with Big Ronnie. Osuna said nothing about the incest thing.

I never liked that Rick Moron. So the v-swipe is a lie? How do they tie this into the medical examination?

I never believed the sex thing before the murders but when they claim that it was done by doctors, you tend to buy it when you first read it or give them the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:41 pm

kblur77 wrote:It was in Savive's book along with the incest thing with Big Ronnie. Osuna said nothing about the incest thing.

I never liked that Rick Moron. So the v-swipe is a lie? How do they tie this into the medical examination?

I never believed the sex thing before the murders but when they claim that it was done by doctors, you tend to buy it when you first read it or give them the benefit of the doubt.

I assume you mean Savive mentioned Moran's claims.

Rick Moran was a consonant liar who made things up for articles he wrote. He made up the incest and much more to sensationalize things. He even made up a ridiculous story about the DEA watching the house.

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:21 pm

Regardless if you write a book and mention it you have to take responsibility for it. That's another thing about the dea or whoever being outside the house and seeing the shot blasts in the windows. So Moran was responsible for that too as well as Dawn being outside with the gun?

All Savive did was incorporate Osunas story into his book and then toss in more crap about Dawn.

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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:28 pm

kblur77 wrote:Regardless if you write a book and mention it you have to take responsibility for it. That's another thing about the dea or whoever being outside the house and seeing the shot blasts in the windows. So Moran was responsible for that too as well as Dawn being outside with the gun?

All Savive did was incorporate Osunas story into his book and then toss in more crap about Dawn.
Savive mentioned the source of the claims so that we can be aware who made them and evaluate them. He gave some too much credence himself but we get to decide for ourselves.

Moran is the one who came up with the stupid claim that the DEA was outside the house and watched Dawn ditch the gun that killed her in the ocean. Since he laimed she diteched the gun prior to her death she claims she was shot with a different gun when she returned.

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:35 pm

I wrote to Savive but he didn't respond. He claimed dawn was shot with another gun? Didn't know about this one? Was this another gun or the 38?

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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:42 pm

kblur77 wrote:I wrote to Savive but he didn't respond. He claimed dawn was shot with another gun? Didn't know about this one? Was this another gun or the 38?
Savive subscribed to the lies in Osuna's book about a Colt Python being used. A Colt Python is a 357 which can fire both 38 special and 357 Magnum rounds. It not only had too few lands and grooves but had a left hand twist whereas item 33 was fired by a un with a right hand twist and had more than 8 lands and grooves. Savive didn't do a good job of testing the claims. He simply adopted many thing from Osuna's book without adequately testing the claims.

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msmart112
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by msmart112 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:51 pm

kblur77 wrote:So Moran was responsible for that too as well as Dawn being outside with the gun?
Here’s the ridiculous 2004 Fortean Times article...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean2.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean3.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean4.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean5.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean6.jpg

...oddly enough...a year earlier...he had mentioned a DEA agent in an article on his website. I’m including the text below. He was basically mocking Jay Anson for what he wrote in the AH...and then put forth some ridiculous scenarios about the murders. But then...a year later...he wrote about those scenarios as if they were true!
Rick Moran wrote:I recently had a call that really shocked my proverbial socks off! It was a magazine editor who wanted to know the inside stuff on a book written almost 30 years ago. Seems there is a new tome in the breeze about the same subject due out for the Christmas book season and he wanted the jump on the real story! The funny thing about this particular story is that it became as popular as it did thirty years ago because the author claimed his book was “A True Story” to begin with. The title? The Amityville Horror…A True Story!

So why are they calling me! Well, gentle readers, there was a time when I was not an aging, out of work editor. In fact, there was a time when I’d take on any story my editors put before me and thirty years ago, while working for CBS, I was asked to learn the real deal on the now famous book with a half-life of kryptonite. The new book (2003) is still under wraps, even the author has not been named publicly as yet, but claims to tell the whole truth about the Amityville story. I have to admit, the notion peaked my interest. Way back, when the Jay Anson book was new, the murders of the DeFeo family on Ocean Avenue in Amityville and subsequent ravings of short-staying tenants, the Lutz Family, was on everyone’s lips. Why wait almost 30 years for someone to come out with the truth… And by the way, didn’t I already tell that story, anyway?

The fact is that a lot of people knew the truth about the DeFeo homicides. Every cop on the case knew every lurid detail of the family life at 112 Ocean Avenue, but lets not go there, this is a family newspaper. Ronnie DeFeo eventually confessed to killing his father, mother, two younger brothers and two younger sisters, while high on some sort of controlled substance. He had earlier made a different confession, involving his sibling Dawn as a co-trigger, but recanted that story when his grandfather, reputed to be a connected member of a crime family in Brooklyn, was allowed to visit the younger DeFeo alone, exiting the room with his grandson’s face a little worse for the wear. It was alleged at the time that Grandpa didn’t want the family laundry out for everyone to see; one grandson taking down the family was bad enough!

The second half of Anson’s novel involved the Lutz Family, who somehow bought the house at 112 Ocean Avenue shortly thereafter, to spite the fact that they had no money in the bank, were on the verge of bankruptcy and no real prospects for making the monthly payments from the start. The family reportedly stayed in the house less than two weeks, haunted by fiery eyed floating pigs, demons of every description and general Halloween antics, usually found on late night TV shows. They fled in terror and into author Anson’s waiting hands. The true outcome; Anson gained a beautiful house in Spain, the Lutz Family an undisclosed sum that they later said was not enough because the demons had followed them to the west coast for a sequel …. Oh, and Ronnie DeFeo got several life sentences and is still living compliments of the State of New York in a Maximum Security Prison with the Son of Sam as a pod mate!

Telling the truth about …The True Story, is an interesting proposition, but there are plenty of current, breaking stories with the same effect. OK, you really want to know about this case, then consider these possibilities:

Dawn does the killings while Ronnie wastes away in an overstuffed arm chair on the first floor at 112 Ocean Avenue (For sticklers who want the whole truth, he was watching the movie Castle Keep… OK now ask me how I know that?). Ronnie then offs Dawn in shock after killing the kids… she wasn’t suppose to do that! Now, add to that scenario boats coming up the Amityville Creek into the boathouse adjacent to 112 Ocean Avenue, laden with high-ticket drugs off a larger ship on Great South Bay. (This apparently was Amityville’s answer to the Midnight Run.) Imagine DEA operatives watching the house at all hours, even on the night of the murders, who can’t officially report the crime for fear of toppling a bigger investigation into organized crime. Imagine a large “Bank” of money in the house for drug transactions that is never found and a deal with an out of luck family to go into the house to search thoroughly for the hidden loot!

Gee, that sounds better than Anson’s story! I wonder why he never wrote it that way? Well, that is easy to answer. After I did my stories to demystify Amityville all those years ago, I got to ask Jay Anson just that. He smiled with a look of wisdom and said, “But you are a Journalist, you deal with facts, truths, corroborated testimony. I’m a writer. I just tell a story. All I need is for someone to tell me, “This is a true story,” and I can write it just that way. Telling the story from the vantage point of a journalist is just too messy. Facts and all. You could get sued and you rarely make as much money and it takes too much time.”

Looking back on those gems of wisdom, I have to chuckle. It was as if I was being invited to come over to The Dark Side. I have to admit I really liked Jay Anson, he was a nice guy and told one hell of a story. Unfortunately, while he earned enough to build that little piece of heaven in Spain, he never lived to see it. And as for the newest tail of Amityville, don’t waste your money, next November. If you’ve read this column today, all you have to do is spice up my synopsis with some lurid sex and violence, add a few ghostly presences and a couple of underworld mobsters, a crime fighting Federal prosecutor with an eye on higher office and shake. If I had taken Jay’s suggestion all those years ago, I might have done it myself… but I never liked Majorca to begin with!
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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:20 am

scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:I wrote to Savive but he didn't respond. He claimed dawn was shot with another gun? Didn't know about this one? Was this another gun or the 38?
Savive subscribed to the lies in Osuna's book about a Colt Python being used. A Colt Python is a 357 which can fire both 38 special and 357 Magnum rounds. It not only had too few lands and grooves but had a left hand twist whereas item 33 was fired by a un with a right hand twist and had more than 8 lands and grooves. Savive didn't do a good job of testing the claims. He simply adopted many thing from Osuna's book without adequately testing the claims.
I'd have to go back and skim through his book. Been awhile since I read that one and cant quote much from it off my head.

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:24 am

msmart112 wrote:
kblur77 wrote:So Moran was responsible for that too as well as Dawn being outside with the gun?
Here’s the ridiculous 2004 Fortean Times article...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean2.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean3.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean4.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean5.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... rtean6.jpg

...oddly enough...a year earlier...he had mentioned a DEA agent in an article on his website. I’m including the text below. He was basically mocking Jay Anson for what he wrote in the AH...and then put forth some ridiculous scenarios about the murders. But then...a year later...he wrote about those scenarios as if they were true!

I'll check this whole thing out later today!
Rick Moran wrote:I recently had a call that really shocked my proverbial socks off! It was a magazine editor who wanted to know the inside stuff on a book written almost 30 years ago. Seems there is a new tome in the breeze about the same subject due out for the Christmas book season and he wanted the jump on the real story! The funny thing about this particular story is that it became as popular as it did thirty years ago because the author claimed his book was “A True Story” to begin with. The title? The Amityville Horror…A True Story!

So why are they calling me! Well, gentle readers, there was a time when I was not an aging, out of work editor. In fact, there was a time when I’d take on any story my editors put before me and thirty years ago, while working for CBS, I was asked to learn the real deal on the now famous book with a half-life of kryptonite. The new book (2003) is still under wraps, even the author has not been named publicly as yet, but claims to tell the whole truth about the Amityville story. I have to admit, the notion peaked my interest. Way back, when the Jay Anson book was new, the murders of the DeFeo family on Ocean Avenue in Amityville and subsequent ravings of short-staying tenants, the Lutz Family, was on everyone’s lips. Why wait almost 30 years for someone to come out with the truth… And by the way, didn’t I already tell that story, anyway?

The fact is that a lot of people knew the truth about the DeFeo homicides. Every cop on the case knew every lurid detail of the family life at 112 Ocean Avenue, but lets not go there, this is a family newspaper. Ronnie DeFeo eventually confessed to killing his father, mother, two younger brothers and two younger sisters, while high on some sort of controlled substance. He had earlier made a different confession, involving his sibling Dawn as a co-trigger, but recanted that story when his grandfather, reputed to be a connected member of a crime family in Brooklyn, was allowed to visit the younger DeFeo alone, exiting the room with his grandson’s face a little worse for the wear. It was alleged at the time that Grandpa didn’t want the family laundry out for everyone to see; one grandson taking down the family was bad enough!

The second half of Anson’s novel involved the Lutz Family, who somehow bought the house at 112 Ocean Avenue shortly thereafter, to spite the fact that they had no money in the bank, were on the verge of bankruptcy and no real prospects for making the monthly payments from the start. The family reportedly stayed in the house less than two weeks, haunted by fiery eyed floating pigs, demons of every description and general Halloween antics, usually found on late night TV shows. They fled in terror and into author Anson’s waiting hands. The true outcome; Anson gained a beautiful house in Spain, the Lutz Family an undisclosed sum that they later said was not enough because the demons had followed them to the west coast for a sequel …. Oh, and Ronnie DeFeo got several life sentences and is still living compliments of the State of New York in a Maximum Security Prison with the Son of Sam as a pod mate!

Telling the truth about …The True Story, is an interesting proposition, but there are plenty of current, breaking stories with the same effect. OK, you really want to know about this case, then consider these possibilities:

Dawn does the killings while Ronnie wastes away in an overstuffed arm chair on the first floor at 112 Ocean Avenue (For sticklers who want the whole truth, he was watching the movie Castle Keep… OK now ask me how I know that?). Ronnie then offs Dawn in shock after killing the kids… she wasn’t suppose to do that! Now, add to that scenario boats coming up the Amityville Creek into the boathouse adjacent to 112 Ocean Avenue, laden with high-ticket drugs off a larger ship on Great South Bay. (This apparently was Amityville’s answer to the Midnight Run.) Imagine DEA operatives watching the house at all hours, even on the night of the murders, who can’t officially report the crime for fear of toppling a bigger investigation into organized crime. Imagine a large “Bank” of money in the house for drug transactions that is never found and a deal with an out of luck family to go into the house to search thoroughly for the hidden loot!

Gee, that sounds better than Anson’s story! I wonder why he never wrote it that way? Well, that is easy to answer. After I did my stories to demystify Amityville all those years ago, I got to ask Jay Anson just that. He smiled with a look of wisdom and said, “But you are a Journalist, you deal with facts, truths, corroborated testimony. I’m a writer. I just tell a story. All I need is for someone to tell me, “This is a true story,” and I can write it just that way. Telling the story from the vantage point of a journalist is just too messy. Facts and all. You could get sued and you rarely make as much money and it takes too much time.”

Looking back on those gems of wisdom, I have to chuckle. It was as if I was being invited to come over to The Dark Side. I have to admit I really liked Jay Anson, he was a nice guy and told one hell of a story. Unfortunately, while he earned enough to build that little piece of heaven in Spain, he never lived to see it. And as for the newest tail of Amityville, don’t waste your money, next November. If you’ve read this column today, all you have to do is spice up my synopsis with some lurid sex and violence, add a few ghostly presences and a couple of underworld mobsters, a crime fighting Federal prosecutor with an eye on higher office and shake. If I had taken Jay’s suggestion all those years ago, I might have done it myself… but I never liked Majorca to begin with!

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:32 pm

Hmm? So what was his deal with changing face and then going ahead with our current conspiracies and injecting his own junk into all this?

Mob or money or exposure?

I remember him on the Amityville "The Real Story" documentary from a few years ago. He reminded me of George Lutz a bit!

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:13 pm

Here's something that I've been wondering about.

On the ESPN show- Around the Horn, there is a Kate Fagan who looks a heck of a lot like this Grace Fagan, if you all have seen her pics in our friends flick?

Does anyone know if she (they) are related?? :think:

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BooshaGirl
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by BooshaGirl » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:42 pm

Well, weren't there also official reports that Dawn was on her period that night? I highly doubt any young girl back in the 70's would have had sex whilst on her period. Not to say it CAN'T be done, but people didn't really speak freely about such things back then and when a young girl was on her period...she tried to keep it modest.

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:10 pm

Either she was anticipating or done because no blood was found on pad. One of the errors of the detectives and Sullivan. Osuna actually gets this right! Sullivan tried to claim that Dawn did much of the bleeding from her "period" and that is stupid considering the fact that all the blood came from her head wound.

scipio-USMC
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:21 pm

kblur77 wrote:Here's something that I've been wondering about.

On the ESPN show- Around the Horn, there is a Kate Fagan who looks a heck of a lot like this Grace Fagan, if you all have seen her pics in our friends flick?

Does anyone know if she (they) are related?? :think:

She doesn't look like Grace to me, when she came out as a lesbian it was not much of a shock based on how she looks and acts. They are not related Kate's parents are Cris and kathy Fagan.

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:29 pm

LOL! Funny you brought that up! I'll stay quiet on that one. No family connection at all? That pic of Grace off to side of Marc is kind of close...

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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:49 pm

kblur77 wrote:LOL! Funny you brought that up! I'll stay quiet on that one. No family connection at all? That pic of Grace off to side of Marc is kind of close...

No and if you look at Grace today for sure you would see no resemblance.

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kblur77
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by kblur77 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:04 pm

How do you know?

scipio-USMC
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Re: Some Questions About Dawn

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:08 pm

kblur77 wrote:How do you know?
Because I saw a recent photo of her and her husband.

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