The Old ? Remains?

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
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Brendan72
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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by Brendan72 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:56 am

It is really quite difficult to say for sure how one would really react if they were one of the DeFeo victims. In fact it is difficult to say how one would react when or if they were in a situation such as a siege or a bank robbery which involved guns. At a good guess it is quite likely the person making such claim "why didn't they run or hide?" would react quite different to how they would speculate they would react.

It also makes me think about he victims and people involved in two situations in recent news, one of which was the Martin Place siege in Sydney. Unfortunately in that incident two hostages were killed. I am sure if someone asked one of the survivors "why didn't you run?" then they would be told "you weren't there so don't make such stupid assumptions".

It makes me the DeFeo's, especially those who were awakened by the first shots had either not enough time to react, or were so frozen with fear they did not (or could not) move.
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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by TigresMeow » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:11 am

You do have a point, Brendan. We don't know how we would react if we were in the exact same situation so we surely can't say what the DeFeo's would do. We can speculate on how we think we would react but we could not say for certain unless faced with the same situation under the same circumstances.
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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:35 am

Brendan72 wrote:It is really quite difficult to say for sure how one would really react if they were one of the DeFeo victims. In fact it is difficult to say how one would react when or if they were in a situation such as a siege or a bank robbery which involved guns. At a good guess it is quite likely the person making such claim "why didn't they run or hide?" would react quite different to how they would speculate they would react.

It also makes me think about he victims and people involved in two situations in recent news, one of which was the Martin Place siege in Sydney. Unfortunately in that incident two hostages were killed. I am sure if someone asked one of the survivors "why didn't you run?" then they would be told "you weren't there so don't make such stupid assumptions".

It makes me the DeFeo's, especially those who were awakened by the first shots had either not enough time to react, or were so frozen with fear they did not (or could not) move.
People are all different. While on a bus somone attacked the driver. The bus was packed, the bus swerved around and could have crashed injuring people. I was the only one who did anything. People in the back of the bus had no idea what was going on but those of us standing and sitting near the front did. No one else tried to do anything. They were too scared, too lazy or stunned to do anything. That makes it all the more amazing that so many people got together to confront the hijackers of Flight 93 on 9/11/01.

The difference from most situations is that DeFeo decided to kill them in the middle of the night. It was done that way on purpose because they would put up little to no resistance precisely because most victims would not have time to wake up fully, appreciate what was going on and then be able to decide to take action. That is why killers execute people as they sleep. It was neither the first nor last that a fmaily was taken out while sleeping.

During active shooter situations there will be a handful who actually try to fight back and then the bulk who do nothing.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:41 pm

Yeah it makes no difference forty years later. So why are you on here still talking about it? Simple answer, you are waiting for people to comment on the murders or the family or the conspiracies. But if it's so simple like you claim, seems you would get tired of telling what we all could find and know very quickly about it ourselves. I don't believe you're on here to just repeat he did it so lets all drop it and move on nonsense!

Me, I've had/got a bit of obsession with the defeos and their home & family which is why I visited the home several times years ago. I got to stand there a bit on that driveway and take a look around. It was fun and eerie and I happened to get it on camera with a friend, not to mention Peter Oneill coming out to see what we were doing. So we walked off and were able to say been there and done that but I would trade what I could to go back there lets say summer of 74.

If a Ryan or Osuna writes a book on Defeos, you bet I'm gonna take a look! Especially if they provide new pics of them, hopefully of Dawn!

I have my own view of that family but I don't come on here and talk much about it because it's really none of my business. So I keep much of that part to myself.

Ronnie once claimed that he was one of three whom actually knew how it all went down? Sure another lie, but if not, ??

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:45 pm

kblur77 wrote:Yeah it makes no difference forty years later. So why are you on here still talking about it? Simple answer, you are waiting for people to comment on the murders or the family or the conspiracies. But if it's so simple like you claim, seems you would get tired of telling what we all could find and know very quickly about it ourselves. I don't believe you're on here to just repeat he did it so lets all drop it and move on nonsense!

Me, I've had/got a bit of obsession with the defeos and their home & family which is why I visited the home several times years ago. I got to stand there a bit on that driveway and take a look around. It was fun and eerie and I happened to get it on camera with a friend, not to mention Peter Oneill coming out to see what we were doing. So we walked off and were able to say been there and done that but I would trade what I could to go back there lets say summer of 74.

If a Ryan or Osuna writes a book on Defeos, you bet I'm gonna take a look! Especially if they provide new pics of them, hopefully of Dawn!

I have my own view of that family but I don't come on here and talk much about it because it's really none of my business. So I keep much of that part to myself.

Ronnie once claimed that he was one of three whom actually knew how it all went down? Sure another lie, but if not, ??

Being obsessed to see photos is pretty pathetic. As for me all I care about are the facts and when people post obvious rubbish I am going to challenge same. That's really all there is to say about it. I learned as much as can be learned from all the evidence. I am not worried about details that make no difference that will never be known. If people want the info available shared I am more than willing to sd so as others shared with me but that is pretty much the extent of it.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:59 pm

Didn't say obsessed with photos but enjoy seeing new ones. You misinterpret some of the terminology I use to describe certain things by using the very-extreme-dark stance- you take on here which is not the case with me. I'm not obsessed in the way you think but you never seen any humor in anything.

Not to mention the fact that from what you wrote in here earlier totally contradicts what you were trying to tell me on Saturday night with your posts. Oh yeah go back and read them.

Finally, you said that the bullet fired into Dawn was still in her head, earlier in our posts. It exited her head and was in pillow.

Yep you got the facts....

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:46 pm

kblur77 wrote:Didn't say obsessed with photos but enjoy seeing new ones. You misinterpret some of the terminology I use to describe certain things by using the very-extreme-dark stance- you take on here which is not the case with me. I'm not obsessed in the way you think but you never seen any humor in anything.

Not to mention the fact that from what you wrote in here earlier totally contradicts what you were trying to tell me on Saturday night with your posts. Oh yeah go back and read them.

Finally, you said that the bullet fired into Dawn was still in her head, earlier in our posts. It exited her head and was in pillow.

Yep you got the facts....
I didn't forget anything. The exit wound was against the pillow with is why the bullet traveled into her pillow. How would blood fly out of the pillow onto the headboard? Only the entrance wound had a clear path for spatter to fly from it but that would have been back spatter as I explained. I assumed you knew the exit would was flush against her pillow if not then sorry I gave you too much credit.

I have not posted anythign contradictory excpet in your imagination. I said you know nothing about guns, bullets wound, or blood spatter and instead of deferring to experts regarding same were just making up your own nonsense based on what you expect with all your expertise in the field coming from TV. Time and again you confirm that is indeed the case.

You are not an expert and your theory is just made up by you based on your own ignorant expectaitons nothing more. If you find an expert who says that based on the location of the wounds there would have been high velocity forward spatter on the headboards you can let us know and we can evaluate those claims based on the evidence offered.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by RowdyRodimus » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:54 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:
kblur77 wrote:I'm glad you made the comment! I'm going to make one final post here on this matter and the other stuff I brought forward to show that WHAT I HAVE SAID about the Defeo murders is very RELEVANT & GOOD possibility about what happened on that night concerning time frames and every other point I have put forward.

I let PROSECUTOR GERARD SULLIVAN SPEAK FOR ME! you all might remember this man, if not then give it up.

page 349 of "HIGH HOPES"

"I STILL "THINK" ABOUT THE DEFEO CASE-ESPECIALLY about the CHILDREN.
And I "WONDER" about the QUESTIONS that WERE "NEVER" "ANSWERED".
DID ANY OF THE VICTIMS "WAKE UP"?
If so, WHY DIDN'T ANY OF THEM DEFEND THEMSELVES?

WHY WERE "ALL SIX" "FOUND" "FACE-DOWN" in DEATH?

WHY DIDN'T "ANYONE" "HEAR" THE "SHOTS"?

Now my good people in here. DID YOU GET THIS FINALLY? The "MAN" who put Ronald Butch Defeo behind bars and PROSECUTED THIS CASE, oddly enough, does NOT have answers to what should be SO OBVIOUS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT!

If it all went so FAST then THERE SHOULD BE NO QUESTIONS, NO THEORIES, NO SPECULATION! NO WORRIES OR WONDERS????????

I THANK YOU GERARD SULLIVAN FOR ASKING WHAT I HAVE BEEN WONDERING MYSELF ABOUT THIS BIZARRE MURDER CASE FROM LONG AGO!!

nuff said.......
Sullivan ignored the evidence that establishes many of them did wake up. The book was more than a year after the trial so little wonder he forgot details tha the didn't even fully appreciate at trial. Despite the testimony he neve rput everything together for the jury in his summation. He didn't need to- because Defeo had admitted his guilt to police, that confession resulted in the evidence fromt he murders and he reiterated he killed them at trial. A monkey could have convicted him.

WHy didn't they finght back? Well 5 of them had no time to fight back they were killed before they had time to wake up fully and react. The last victim didn't go down stairs and thus did not discover the victims and didn't appreciate what had happened so simply went back to bed. There is no giant mystery.

Mysteries exist when people lack the knowledge to understand something. That can be lacking facts or lacking the ability to understand the facts. We have enough facts but most people lack the desire or ability to comprehend them.

In the meantime if someone did wake up run in the hall, see Ron with the gun and obey orders to go to the bed an lie down that would be understandable since people often comply with orders of a gunman. It makes no difference if any did such or not. Ron still killed them all and that is what matters.

I don't worry about or bother contemplating things that make no difference.
I'm not an expert in any of these matters, all I can do is try to think of plausible explanations for things, so none of this is to be taken as me having issues with anything anyone has said so far.

With that said. If the first shots in the parents room woke up the children and they got up, Ronnie could've already been out of their room. The kids see their older brother with a rifle they know he owns. Even if they knew there were gunshots (even though most people don't know what the sounds are that woke them up are) all he would have to do is tell them to go get in bed and cover their heads because someone broke in. If you're a kid and told that by your older brother, you're not going to be thinking "My big brother just killed Mom and Dad and is going to kill me next". Then when they are all back in bed, he realizes he's not going to be able to have any other options and goes through and shoots them. The girls might think that he's shooting at a burglar as he kills the boys and not make a move out of fear, allowing him to go to their room and killing them. We're never going to know the whole story, Ronnie feels that by keeping the true story to himself he has power over people and he's going to take it to his grave. All we can offer are theories and conjecture based on what evidence we have.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:18 pm

The people least likely to wake up based on other cases is children. There are examples of adult not hearing gunshots in rooms next door and not waking up but this happens even more frequently with children. They are also the least likely to get up to investigate. It is a combination of kids tending to sleep more soundly than adults (though there are exceptions) and being more scared to investigate.

Why would Ron admit Dawn got up but not admit if anyone else had gotten out of bed and he had told them to get back into bed? He had nothing to gain in making up that Dawn had woken up and he told her to go back to bed. Thus his claim is most likely true. If he admitted that why wouldn't he admit if others had gotten up? Considering this and how fast the murders happened there is no reason to disbelieve his claim that no one else got out of bed.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by RowdyRodimus » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:11 pm

Sci, I don't doubt that a bit. There was no reason to admit Dawn got up and neglect to mention the others if they had gotten up (unless he was just trying to build a case for himself caring enough to kill them while they slept where they wouldn't feel it. But that is about as likely as Jimmy Carter regaining the presidency next election). I was just playing devil's advocate on the suggestion that the kids might have gotten up that was made a page back, not that I believe they did. I know it sounds kind of stupid, but I like coming up with ways things could happen, it's one of the reasons my brother always hated watching movies with me, I'd pick apart motivations and come up with what I thought were better ideas.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:24 pm

I admitted the theoretical possiblity in the past of them being told to go back to bed or alternatively marched to bed at gunpoint. Personally I think that in his state had they gotten up he would have shot them right there where he foudn them a sopposed to ordering them to bed. What saved Dawn from that fate was the fact he was out of bullets. He never did explain how long it took him to reload...

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:44 pm

scipio-USMC wrote:I admitted the theoretical possiblity in the past of them being told to go back to bed or alternatively marched to bed at gunpoint. Personally I think that in his state had they gotten up he would have shot them right there where he foudn them a sopposed to ordering them to bed. What saved Dawn from that fate was the fact he was out of bullets. He never did explain how long it took him to reload...
Are you completely losing your mind? You have been blasting away at me in here on this matter for almost 2 weeks stating that I'm a liar basically because I have put to question some of the facts, your "official" version. Now you are admitting of supposed possibilities with this thing of him marching them to bed and then shooting them? What happened to your "facts" that cannot be disputed? You won't let me get away with it but it's ok for you to have an alternate theory? Unbelievable!

It says bullet was in pillow in High Hopes, you want the page #? But then again it says a lot of things in there doesn't it! Judging from her HEAD touching the headboard it would suggest that a little blood would have hit the board since he was aiming from left to right, bullet exits forward, inches away from board and nothing? Her board looks virgin white clean to me which is odd because the white would fade over time to an off white color. That is unless she just got it? Doubt.

"Why would Ron admit Dawn got up"?? Maybe he knew ahead of time that he might have to use her in one of his stories later on, so if he said he shot her in bed and she never got up, how could he use her in a story that she was involved?

The time frames they list in H.H.'s are awful! School night and kids up watching tv past 11:00? Bar maid passes house 3:00 to 3:30 does not see Ron's car? These are the big problems here. No one ever could establish any time frames with shots and other things, including neighbor stories?

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:46 pm

kblur77 wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:I admitted the theoretical possiblity in the past of them being told to go back to bed or alternatively marched to bed at gunpoint. Personally I think that in his state had they gotten up he would have shot them right there where he foudn them a sopposed to ordering them to bed. What saved Dawn from that fate was the fact he was out of bullets. He never did explain how long it took him to reload...
Are you completely losing your mind? You have been blasting away at me in here on this matter for almost 2 weeks stating that I'm a liar basically because I have put to question some of the facts, your "official" version. Now you are admitting of supposed possibilities with this thing of him marching them to bed and then shooting them? What happened to your "facts" that cannot be disputed? You won't let me get away with it but it's ok for you to have an alternate theory? Unbelievable!

It says bullet was in pillow in High Hopes, you want the page #? But then again it says a lot of things in there doesn't it! Judging from her HEAD touching the headboard it would suggest that a little blood would have hit the board since he was aiming from left to right, bullet exits forward, inches away from board and nothing? Her board looks virgin white clean to me which is odd because the white would fade over time to an off white color. That is unless she just got it? Doubt.

"Why would Ron admit Dawn got up"?? Maybe he knew ahead of time that he might have to use her in one of his stories later on, so if he said he shot her in bed and she never got up, how could he use her in a story that she was involved?

The time frames they list in H.H.'s are awful! School night and kids up watching tv past 11:00? Bar maid passes house 3:00 to 3:30 does not see Ron's car? These are the big problems here. No one ever could establish any time frames with shots and other things, including neighbor stories?

The one who lost his mind is in your mirror. He claimed Dawn got up and went back to bed in case years later he wanted to make up the lie she helped? If he had tha tin mind he would have used it at trial. More importantly, how does the claim she got up then went back to bed help his reivisonist claims that she never went to bed and was invovled in carrying out the murders of the others?

You don't use your head at all.

There is a big difference between mentioning theoretical possiblitlies and saying they are unlikely and there is no evidence to support them and then your claism.

You still persist with your babble of how there should be spatter on the headboards though you have no basis at all to make such a claim and are just speculating from a position of ignorance. Spatter doesn't happen in every case and when it does it is based on a variety of factors. You just assume it there owuld have to be blood on the headboards and so much of it that you can see the blood on photos. You have no expertise int he field you just decided out of your ass tha tis how it shoudl be. Nevermind if the wound is against a pillow and bedding, nevermind anythign else you just feel you know how it should be.

All you are doing is embarrassing yourself.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:01 am

scipio-USMC wrote:All you are doing is embarrassing yourself.
We're not in court now, Scipio - people are allowed to speculate, just as you are allowed to correct them - without insults!

Do you want me to set Victoria on you? :P

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:02 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:
scipio-USMC wrote:All you are doing is embarrassing yourself.
We're not in court now, Scipio - people are allowed to speculate, just as you are allowed to correct them - without insults!

Do you want me to set Victoria on you? :P
The suggestion that during DeFeo's confession he stated Dawn woke up and he told her to go back to bed was a lie in case years later he would want to make up her being involved is a stupid one for the reaosns I pointed out. When people make incredibly stupid claims there is no way to discredit those claims without insulting them.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:14 pm

The guy (padre-pio) cannot read. I didn't state at what he SAID during his trial! I said as one of his stories he might use later on.

Did you get another round of panic attacks last night or did you break out with the stigmata?

Oh yeah, still waiting for you and your "less than one minute" theory you made up that you claim was "fact"?

Have you found this testimony yet or are you still looking for it?

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:16 pm

Plus everything Ron has thrown out since the police first came to house is not written or recorded in some document. Nor the fact that everything he spoke about in trial is listed in a full format for people to read or obtain. Just certain parts (your only version if you will) are or have been made available.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:31 pm

kblur77 wrote:The guy (padre-pio) cannot read. I didn't state at what he SAID during his trial! I said as one of his stories he might use later on.

Did you get another round of panic attacks last night or did you break out with the stigmata?

Oh yeah, still waiting for you and your "less than one minute" theory you made up that you claim was "fact"?

Have you found this testimony yet or are you still looking for it?

I can read and also comprehend while you are sorely lacking on bother counts.

We were discussing his claim during his confession to police that Dawn woke up. You ridiculously asserted he might have made up the claim she woke up, got out of bed called down to him and then got back in bed and he shot her some time later in bed in case he wanted to use it down the road to assert she was involved or repsonsible.

How does the claim she woke up and went back to bed before being shot in bed by him help provide some basis for him to suggest she was responsible or helped? The obvious answer is it doesn't- obvious to someone with half a brain that is.

Moreover, it is obvious to someone with half a brain that if at the time of his confession he had wanted to try to suggest she was invovled he would have done it then ad there at that point and would do so by making up something that would actually amount to her taking part not simply waking up from the noise, going back to bed and being shot by him.

But you have such poor critical thinking and comprehension skills that you took the following quote from me:

"The suggestion that during DeFeo's confession he stated Dawn woke up and he told her to go back to bed was a lie in case..."

and you posted the following:

"The guy (padre-pio) cannot read. I didn't state at what he SAID during his trial!"

I didn't say what he said during his trial either I specifically referenced his confession not his trial testimony. You are the one incapale of reading and comprehending and the more you post the more I am convinced you are an alias of Ayko otherwise you amazing share some of the same exact flaws including grammar issues.

As for your babble about the trial theory, the trial theory didn't specify a time because they had no need to. The trial theory was he rapidly went room to room shooting everyone in a very short period of time. That theory was supported by his confession to police and at trial where he asserted he rapidly went room to room killing everyone on the 2nd floor till the gun was empty. The jury didn't hear any claims from anyone that he took time before walking to the next room. The prosecution's theory was he walked room to room before anyone had time to wake up fully and react except Dawn who got up according to Ron but went back to bed and was then shot in bed. The physical evidence presented at trial established she was indeed shot in bed. Only DeFeo's claims supported the notion she got up but he had no reaosn to make such up and your supposed reaosning shy he would is patently ridicilous.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:35 pm

kblur77 wrote:Plus everything Ron has thrown out since the police first came to house is not written or recorded in some document. Nor the fact that everything he spoke about in trial is listed in a full format for people to read or obtain. Just certain parts (your only version if you will) are or have been made available.
His confession was recorded in writing and he signed it. The police testified as to what he told them as well. Seeing his full testimony will not change a thing or help with your stupid theory. You are just embarrassing yourrself when you make stupid claims.

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:03 pm

He never signed it. Old news here. No recordings and only what was written on a piece of paper.

Is this all you have here?

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Re: The Old ? Remains?

Post by kblur77 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:10 pm

No attorney present there, no tape recording made , and no video. Nope, no violations here! Plus, old Ron claims he didn't sign it but this time you believe him to be honest that he did or (I should say) the scpd on this one.

The scpd has always been upheld as the "pillar" of "honesty".

And it still made no mention of this less than one minute theory you claim? :wall:

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