The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

General Discussion About the 1974 DeFeo Murders and related topics
User avatar
FoxyP
Amityville Member
Posts: 13
Location: England

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by FoxyP » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:35 pm

One thing you will never know Scipio is how many times your dog barked before you woke and realized he was barking. I've woken with 'a jump' a couple of times recently, not knowing why until I heard a clap of thunder and realized there was a storm overhead. Had the clap that woke me been a gunshot aimed at me, I'd not have heard it; it's often said you never hear the bullet that kills you.

I'm convinced that Ronnie's initial confession to the police is the definitive answer to what happened that night. That he's changed his story many times since cannot erase that admission. The only question left for me is why the hell did he do it? I can't believe, as some maintain, it was 'for the money' as it all seemed so spontaneous with little thought as to how he would get away with it. It appears to be an irrational act fuelled by rage and hatred - perhaps Ronnie finally realized that the theft of takings from his grandfather's business was the end of the road for him as far as his family life was concerned and as an act of revenge he decided to kill his family.

All Ronnie's subsequent, poorly thought out explanations have been to divert the blame away from himself and he's manipulated the 'friends' and, particularly, the women in his life to achieve that end, dumping them unceremoniously when they've served their purpose. He maintains he loved his family but, of course, he didn't. He's incapable of finer feelings of any kind as evidenced by the attempted character assassination of his sister Dawn and both parents plus his evident pride in being, as he said, The [real] Amityville Horror.

There is only one suitable space on the planet for people like RJD and that's a prison cell where he would certainly have ended up even had he not murdered his own family. It's regrettable that all Ronnie's years of incarceration haven't taught him humility or one ounce of remorse.

Fox
Formerly FoxyJ :)

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:41 pm

I believe this scenario is not only possible, but likely. The medical examiner and in some versions Ronnie, too, state Mrs. DeFeo woke when Mr. DeFeo was initially shot, raised herself from the bed & possibly looked toward the door. And according to Ronnie, his mother exclaimed, OMG, Ronnie (referencing her husband, not her son). I'm certain by this startilization, Butch instinctually aimed at his mother and fired.

An article published in Newsday reporting the Medical Examiner's testimony at trial describes Mrs. DeFeo as even struggling to get out of bed prior to being shot.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:10 pm

The thing that gets me is that it seemed like he chose the night he did precisely because his father would not go to work the next day so it was the perfect opportunity to go without his father and pretend nothing was wrong and pretend they were killed while he was at work. Normally they went to work together so that would not be possible.

Yet he failed miserably at staging the scene to look like they were killed after dawn and his claim he was locked out and not sure why they were not answering was downright pathetic. That makes it look like he did it with no planning ahead and just was dumbfounded about what to do after. We have seen how bad he is at making things up with his fairytales after being convicted so it could go either way. He could have planned it out and just been the worst planner ever or might have been spontaneous and then he was not sure what to do.

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:36 pm

I feel it was the latter. Spontaneous and then made it up after having mulled the idea in his head previously. He's not bright, clearly, so he's definitely not a world master mind.

According to another Newsday article covering the trial, Grace Fagan testified Dawn told her loan sharks were looking for Ronnie and intended to do him serious harm, but the matter had been "taken care of". For a kid whose father gave him allegedly anything he wanted, he sure came up short a lot of the time on cash. Stealing outboard motors, robbing his grandfather's business, loan sharing - sounds like he may have exaggerated just how generous his family really was.

For the record, I never bought his dad showering him with gifts and money and begging him to stay home. Seems what we only know of the family is by way of their murderer. No credibility there and thus, anything uncovered from the earliest aspects of the investigation seems to be the most "true".
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:59 pm

astonio wrote:I feel it was the latter. Spontaneous and then made it up after having mulled the idea in his head previously. He's not bright, clearly, so he's definitely not a world master mind.

According to another Newsday article covering the trial, Grace Fagan testified Dawn told her loan sharks were looking for Ronnie and intended to do him serious harm, but the matter had been "taken care of". For a kid whose father gave him allegedly anything he wanted, he sure came up short a lot of the time on cash. Stealing outboard motors, robbing his grandfather's business, loan sharing - sounds like he may have exaggerated just how generous his family really was.

For the record, I never bought his dad showering him with gifts and money and begging him to stay home. Seems what we only know of the family is by way of their murderer. No credibility there and thus, anything uncovered from the earliest aspects of the investigation seems to be the most "true".
You know I said the same thing in the past. Why would he need to resort to so much crime and why would he be complaining about his grandfather being so cheap by paying him only $80 a week if he was given all the money he wanted. Moreover, why was he complaining about his father buying Marc crutches and a wheel chair but not lavishing him wiht as much money. That right there is an admission he was not getting lavished or he would not have been jealous. The fact he was jealous over a wheel chair and medical bills tells you just how mental he is.

As for his parents forcing him to stay with them instead of moving out give me a break. It is pretty clear they would have loved him to be out and based on some things Kelske said they might have been in the process of kicking him out. That might very well be what prompted him to kill them. He simply doesn't want to admit he was a loser who had to live with his parents because he could not afford to live on his own.

I also believe that the loansharks were either the ones who he had stage the robbery with him and let them keep the money to get out of trouble, or he had friends stage it and then gave his share to the loansharks. The money didn't turn up after he was arrested and he didn't make any big purchases before being busted so it would explain where the money went.

Fagan certainly seemed to imply this. If they didn't gotten their money back the notion the loansharks would kill his family not him and frame him makes no sense. They would not get their money back anyway with him in prison for murder. Moreover he would not stay silent even at this late date and try to blame family instead of the loansharks.

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:16 pm

Interesting how RK & RO never looked into trial testimony or the friggin newspaper of trial coverage. Grace Fagan would be a considerable powerful witness as she has been previously quoted as being the DeFeo home seven days a week. Different statements from her after the murders provided the most insight into the family.

So, we're developing motive. And where money was certainly an issue or rather greed, seems Ronnie was just a self entitled brat and sometimes that's enough. It's like you said, Scipio. Sometimes it's simply right there in front of you and not some far fetched overthrown spectacular reasoning. What's difficult to swallow is six people lose their lives horribly due to something as trivial as a child's jealous temper tantrum x 10.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:50 am

astonio wrote:Interesting how RK & RO never looked into trial testimony or the friggin newspaper of trial coverage. Grace Fagan would be a considerable powerful witness as she has been previously quoted as being the DeFeo home seven days a week. Different statements from her after the murders provided the most insight into the family.

So, we're developing motive. And where money was certainly an issue or rather greed, seems Ronnie was just a self entitled brat and sometimes that's enough. It's like you said, Scipio. Sometimes it's simply right there in front of you and not some far fetched overthrown spectacular reasoning. What's difficult to swallow is six people lose their lives horribly due to something as trivial as a child's jealous temper tantrum x 10.
Fagan would have been the most obvious person for a researcher to try to reach out to. But she invariably would have put to rest all of Geraldine's lies and they didn't want that. Fagan helped establish the narrative that they want to pretend was false. They intentionally want a revisionist account so that they can be different and garner attention in that manner.

Ron initially made up a revisionist tale that somewhat comported with known events developed at the trial. For instance his tale was that he did not go to work on November 12 and instead was at Geraldine's. Ron admitted during the course of his police interview that he didn't go to work but rather stayed home sick having his mother take care of him. Coworkers testified he did not show up for work. High Hopes spelled this all out quite clearly. So a natural question to ask would be why did you claim you were at home being tended to by your mother if you were drinking at Geraldine's? Not only was that question never asked they published Geraldine's version where she claimed he went to work on the 12th. She claimed he was on his way to her house from work when Louise called looking for him. This is one of the more mild lies but it is one that doesn' need an extrinsic source to prove false. It conflicts with the trial testimony on a variety of levels. RK and RO completely ignored all inconsistencies pretending they did not exist rather than grilling Geraldine about them. They also chose not to reveal any to the audience. If you refuse to confront her at least let the audience be aware of the conflicts.

Naturally even his first revisionist tale had a lot of problems. At trial it was established he was almost always around Amityville with friends while not at work. Fagan saw him and spoke to him because he was around. He admitted he was living at home and usually went to work with his father rather than take separate cars. The claim given to Newsday was that he spent a majority of his time in NJ and not much time in Amityville. His friends, Fagan, himself and even his girlfriend are big obstacles to his claim. So to be sure his revisionist account diverged from established facts but he tried to match details he could like not going to work on the 12th.

Geraldine oouldn't care less she just flat out lies about everything and makes no effort at all to try to get anything to match up. Nevermind that the initial account of how they met was each went to the same bar and crossed paths, for the book she wanted a better legacy so made up being a classy singer who he pursued after seeing her perform. She also changed the dates they supposedly met and married. She did this to give herself a much larger role. His tale of hanging out all day at her house and taking Louise's phone call himself was not good enough she had to claim he was at work and she took the call. They never call her on any of this they just publish her account without question. That makes it even more apparent this is her tale not Ron's. Osuna claims he interviewed Ron for 6 hours. Ron insists he dismissed Osuna without telling him anything. Regardless of which is true, there is no way he could have gotten all the details in the book in 6 hours. Most if not all the claims clearly come from Geraldine. So this is not Ron's story it is her story. If you press them on this they say well it doesn't matter if she was really there or not she was for sure married to him 1989-1993 and during that time he told her stuff. It is a big deal though because first of all anything he told her could be a lie and she has no way of knowing if it was or wasn't. More importantly we don't know if Ron really even told her any of the BS she put out. She could have made it all up just like making up being a singer. She clearly made up knowing his lawyers and taking an active role of his defense at trial. That is very significant not a minor lie. She is the source for all the claims about the forged attorney notes erroneously called affidavits. That section of the book discussing them alleges she has personal knowledge of motions being filed to get such admitted into evidence and she is the source of the claim they were created so Siegfried could depose himself and get them admitted into evidence. These forgeries were not used at Ron's 440 hearing. These forgeries were either written subsequent to the 440 Hearing or were not used because Ron's lawyer at that hearing knew they were worthless. There is no such thing as a lawyer deposing himself to get notes admitted. You get an affidavit or too bad. You can't say well they were unwilling to sign an affidavit but I will have myself deposed to say what they told me. An affidavit is only useful pretestimony though. At trial you have to produce the witness. That is the key. If thes epeople actually claimed what was in the notes they would have been subpoenaed by Weber. They were not because these notes were forged and didn't exist during the trial. These notes serve only one purpose. If genuine they could be used to establish ineffective assistance of counsel because Weber should have interviewed the and potentially called them as witesses. So if these notes were real that would have been raised at the 440 hearing. That could be why they were created. But these witnesses would have been tracked down by Suffolk County if that claim were made and could completely deny everything so that would by why it would be a waste of time to try using them if they did exist during the 440 Hearing.

At the end of the day though Geraldine is their whole story. Without her they had no bogus tale to tell.







The tale was changed and embellished by her to make her role much larger than what it was



Even the most basic of things developed in his confession and established at trial were ignored.

User avatar
FoxyP
Amityville Member
Posts: 13
Location: England

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by FoxyP » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:02 am

astonio wrote: **************** Ronnie was just a self entitled brat and sometimes that's enough. It's like you said, Scipio. Sometimes it's simply right there in front of you and not some far fetched overthrown spectacular reasoning. What's difficult to swallow is six people lose their lives horribly due to something as trivial as a child's jealous temper tantrum x 10.
Absolutely Astonio, if one removes everything ever said by Ronnie or that allegedly came from Ronnie via another, plus anything reported by his friends, acquaintances or 'partners in crime,' what is left?

We also have to disregard information from others, such as the late Rick Moran who claimed to have been present at the crime scene at the time the victims were discovered/removed from the house. Mr. Moran got the number of shots fired wrong and, also wrongly, reported that Dawn and Alison were discovered shot dead in a bedroom together. If a so-called professional reporter could get such important facts wrong, why should we believe him when he claimed to have been contacted by a surveillance officer who allegedly saw Dawn, or someone remarkably like her, leave the house wearing a parka with the hood up and dark gloves, carrying what looked to be the murder weapon in her hands. Is this where Ronnie's tall story of the hooded, black-handed figure who handed him the rifle came from? It was also Moran who claimed to have seen large black rubbish bags being taken into the house that he then attempted to link with the 'Seventh Body:' We now know that was absolute balderdash!

Ronnie seized every snippet of information he thought might help him, no matter how ludicrous, and ran with it (or persuaded his wife to run with it). A prime example of this was the ballistics report that described one of the eight bullets recovered as being too distorted/fragmented to ascertain positively that it was fired from Ronnie's Marlin although the report clearly states the bullet in question was identified as being fired from A Marlin. This became Ronnie's tale of a handgun being used despite all the evidence to the contrary. No evidence was ever found to suggest a second shooter was in the house with Ronnie at the time of the murders.

The only credible account of what happened that night was Ronnie's own confession to the police that he later retracted - was never given/was beaten out of him etc., etc. Other than accusing the police of corruption, he had no explanation as to how he knew precisely where his Marlin had been dumped or how the rest of the 'evidence,' found in the storm drain, got there if not put there by him. Perhaps Dawn told him where she'd put all the evidence before he shot her for 'killing the kids.' For trying to implicate his sister and mother he deserves to be right where he is.

After stripping away all the rubbish, we're left with a young man who'd been caught out in a lie regarding the dealership robbery (paying off a loan shark would make sense) and knew he'd passed the point of no return where his family was concerned. He decided to administer the ultimate solution to all his perceived problems and, possibly out of greed but certainly out of rage, wreaked horrific vengeance for which I don't think he has one ounce of remorse.

Fox
Formerly FoxyJ :)

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:19 am

FoxyP wrote:
astonio wrote: **************** Ronnie was just a self entitled brat and sometimes that's enough. It's like you said, Scipio. Sometimes it's simply right there in front of you and not some far fetched overthrown spectacular reasoning. What's difficult to swallow is six people lose their lives horribly due to something as trivial as a child's jealous temper tantrum x 10.
Absolutely Astonio, if one removes everything ever said by Ronnie or that allegedly came from Ronnie via another, plus anything reported by his friends, acquaintances or 'partners in crime,' what is left?

We also have to disregard information from others, such as the late Rick Moran who claimed to have been present at the crime scene at the time the victims were discovered/removed from the house. Mr. Moran got the number of shots fired wrong and, also wrongly, reported that Dawn and Alison were discovered shot dead in a bedroom together. If a so-called professional reporter could get such important facts wrong, why should we believe him when he claimed to have been contacted by a surveillance officer who allegedly saw Dawn, or someone remarkably like her, leave the house wearing a parka with the hood up and dark gloves, carrying what looked to be the murder weapon in her hands. Is this where Ronnie's tall story of the hooded, black-handed figure who handed him the rifle came from? It was also Moran who claimed to have seen large black rubbish bags being taken into the house that he then attempted to link with the 'Seventh Body:' We now know that was absolute balderdash!

Ronnie seized every snippet of information he thought might help him, no matter how ludicrous, and ran with it. A prime example of this was the ballistics report that described one of the eight bullets recovered as being too distorted/fragmented to ascertain positively that it was fired from Ronnie's Marlin although the report clearly states the bullet in question was identified as being fired from A Marlin. This became Ronnie's tale of a handgun being used despite all the evidence to the contrary. No evidence was ever found to suggest a second shooter was in the house with Ronnie at the time of the murders.

The only credible account of what happened that night was Ronnie's own confession to the police that he later retracted - was never given/was beaten out of him etc., etc. Other than accusing the police of corruption, he had no explanation as to how he knew precisely where his Marlin had been dumped or how the rest of the 'evidence,' found in the storm drain, got there if not put there by him. Perhaps Dawn told him where she'd put all the evidence before he shot her for 'killing the kids.' For trying to implicate his sister and mother he deserves to be right where he is.

After stripping away all the rubbish, we're left with a young man who'd been caught out in a lie regarding the dealership robbery (paying off a loan shark would make sense) and knew he'd passed the point of no return where his family was concerned. He decided to administer the ultimate solution to all his perceived problems and, possibly out of greed but certainly out of rage, wreaked horrific vengeance for which I don't think he has one ounce of remorse.

Fox
Moran's claims are so absurd he is either a liar or as dumb as Geraldine.

First an foremost if Dawn disposed of the rifle in the water how could she have been shot with it later?

As for his DEA story in general, a shooting would provide the DEA wiht a valid reason to get inside the house they were supposedly staking out and wanted to get inside so badly. The tale of staying outside without even calling police to alert them about what happened is simply absurd. At any rate each time he tells the story there ends up being more hearsay and we don't get any account from the peopel supposedly there. Instead we get claims of stories about men having been staking it out. It gets thinner each time told and the detaisl change which actually leads me to believe he made it up as opposed to someone playing a trick on him. Reporters unfortunately sometimes make up things because they are so desperate for glory.

User avatar
FoxyP
Amityville Member
Posts: 13
Location: England

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by FoxyP » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:07 am

Of course Rick Moran is dead now so I don't like to say too much about him other than he was completely WRONG on all counts. Goodness only knows why he came up with the story about the DEA officer but perhaps he got the idea from the story being bandied about regarding the DeFeos being suspected of drug-smuggling/dealing or what have you. He must have got the idea from somewhere and, like Ronnie, just embellished it for reasons known only to himself. Why he would want to be of any help to Ronnie I can't imagine. What I do know is that Ronnie/Tracey cottoned on to him, thinking he might be useful - he was not. He even had his own 'area' on Tracey's site but, if I recall correctly, it was little used.

As to your comment, Scipio, regarding how Dawn could have been shot with the rifle if she'd disposed of it herself, when one tells whoppers one needs to have a good memory. :)

Fox
Formerly FoxyJ :)

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:30 am

And that's another thing. Why DID he tell the detectives where the evidence was?? Does it take a genius to know you would be implicating yourself by providing this information?? Even from the read in HH, this was forthcoming on his part and doesn't make any sense. I've tried to spin this as a murderer's bravado - wanting "credit", per se, for his crimes, but this nailed him because obviously who else would have this information?

He delighted in killing his siblings. He reenacted killing Marc, described Dawn's reaction to the gunshot, incriminates himself by mentioning John's leg twitching, remarked of the smell from Allison's wound. How is it that these "researchers" didn't hone in on this placing him in the kids' rooms as they were killed and yet he puts the blame onto Dawn or the mysterious person running out of the house? Like I've said before, he was/is no scholar.

And this is highly speculative, but take another look at the SFW pic of Dawn in bed. The positioning of her body always left me looking for more. If she did awake and left her room, asked if that was him with respect to the gunfire, maybe he did forced her at gunpoint face down in bed? It's her hands on either side of her head the way they rested. Almost anticipatory. Idk. I def could be wrong on that one.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

Victoria Principles
I Am Insane
Posts: 3101

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by Victoria Principles » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:03 am

astonio wrote:And that's another thing. Why DID he tell the detectives where the evidence was?? Does it take a genius to know you would be implicating yourself by providing this information?? Even from the read in HH, this was forthcoming on his part and doesn't make any sense. I've tried to spin this as a murderer's bravado - wanting "credit", per se, for his crimes, but this nailed him because obviously who else would have this information?

He delighted in killing his siblings. He reenacted killing Marc, described Dawn's reaction to the gunshot, incriminates himself by mentioning John's leg twitching, remarked of the smell from Allison's wound. How is it that these "researchers" didn't hone in on this placing him in the kids' rooms as they were killed and yet he puts the blame onto Dawn or the mysterious person running out of the house? Like I've said before, he was/is no scholar.

And this is highly speculative, but take another look at the SFW pic of Dawn in bed. The positioning of her body always left me looking for more. If she did awake and left her room, asked if that was him with respect to the gunfire, maybe he did forced her at gunpoint face down in bed? It's her hands on either side of her head the way they rested. Almost anticipatory. Idk. I def could be wrong on that one.
Butch was insane and insane people don't alway react most people expect them too.

VintageBoy91
Amityville Addict
Posts: 516
Location: Germany

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by VintageBoy91 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:08 am

astonio wrote: And this is highly speculative, but take another look at the SFW pic of Dawn in bed. The positioning of her body always left me looking for more. If she did awake and left her room, asked if that was him with respect to the gunfire, maybe he did forced her at gunpoint face down in bed? It's her hands on either side of her head the way they rested. Almost anticipatory. Idk. I def could be wrong on that one.
But the police reports say that Dawn was found in a natural sleeping position. There's no prove that she was forced by somebody to lay face down in bed, it was just her normal sleeping position. She also wasn't awake when she was shot.

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:37 pm

Hence, why I said "highly speculative"...
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:05 pm

astonio wrote:And that's another thing. Why DID he tell the detectives where the evidence was?? Does it take a genius to know you would be implicating yourself by providing this information?? Even from the read in HH, this was forthcoming on his part and doesn't make any sense. I've tried to spin this as a murderer's bravado - wanting "credit", per se, for his crimes, but this nailed him because obviously who else would have this information?

He delighted in killing his siblings. He reenacted killing Marc, described Dawn's reaction to the gunshot, incriminates himself by mentioning John's leg twitching, remarked of the smell from Allison's wound. How is it that these "researchers" didn't hone in on this placing him in the kids' rooms as they were killed and yet he puts the blame onto Dawn or the mysterious person running out of the house? Like I've said before, he was/is no scholar.

And this is highly speculative, but take another look at the SFW pic of Dawn in bed. The positioning of her body always left me looking for more. If she did awake and left her room, asked if that was him with respect to the gunfire, maybe he did forced her at gunpoint face down in bed? It's her hands on either side of her head the way they rested. Almost anticipatory. Idk. I def could be wrong on that one.
His confession was a mix of 2 things as I see it.

1) He wasn't bright enough to come up with a good story and after police ripped his BS apart he figured he had no choice but to confess. Once he admitted he was in the house when the murders occurred he was pretty much screwed but still put up a fight for a while before giving up and confessing.

2) He was itching to brag about what he did and after his lies fell apart he could not resist bragging about what he did

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:15 am

...Allow me to preface...some of the screenshot pics will overlap the text to ensure I capture all the news report clippings via my Iphone then transferred to my laptop then onto photobucket, which was not that easy. Like will not be as confusing as I'm making it sound.

***giving thanks to my benefactor for providing me such rich information...heh heh..thy know who thy are.. :dance:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:52 am

For Scipio only: I watched a couple of YouTube videos of the Marlin being fired, but outdoors of course. Man, that report is loud as #$&! Question - the closer you are to your target, does it lessen the sound? I mean, after all these years and watching these men fire this weapon, I get why the question comes up concerning none of the family members seemingly jarring out of there sleep...even if the television was on (and in the 70s, I doubt the television in the TV room upstairs had surround sound or even stereo) and with Shaggy's barking, this would have levitated me awake with a quickness! I really mean, that sucker is LOUD!
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:32 pm

astonio wrote:For Scipio only: I watched a couple of YouTube videos of the Marlin being fired, but outdoors of course. Man, that report is loud as #$&! Question - the closer you are to your target, does it lessen the sound? I mean, after all these years and watching these men fire this weapon, I get why the question comes up concerning none of the family members seemingly jarring out of there sleep...even if the television was on (and in the 70s, I doubt the television in the TV room upstairs had surround sound or even stereo) and with Shaggy's barking, this would have levitated me awake with a quickness! I really mean, that sucker is LOUD!
Thanks for the articles.

As to your question there are a couple of things to note. 1 is pretty obvious, that shots are loudest if you are in the vicinity where they are fired. But there is more to this. Firing in a room makes it even louder on your ears. At least if you are outdoors the sound has room to travel. Echoing against walls is big time annoying. I rarely fired a weapon without using hearing protection but have done so indoors 2 times and both times I didn't want to pull the trigger again. Trying to prepare your ears for it doesn't help your aim. The fact he endured it gleefully and says he heard nothing tells you what kind of moment he was in that he was so fixated on the killings as opposed to the sound. Admittedly no one was shooting at me or maybe I would have been more willing to ignore the sound and concentrated on my shooting.

Because the walls muffle the sound, shots fired in other rooms sounds to me a lot like when someone drops a glass cup. The way you know when glass broke is usually when you hear someone moving the broken glass around afterwards. The initial fall is a pop that you are not sure exactly what it was. A window breaking is the same the initial break is a pop. When the remaining glass shards are knocked out or moved around then you know it is glass.

If a shot is fired outdoors the sound travels further for obvious reasons so the echo is not as bad on the shooter though the initial shot is virtually the same. Indoors the echo is what really gets you.

Whether people will fully wake up really depends more on their sleeping habits than anything else. A light sleeper like me is going to wake up no matter where a shot is fired in my house and that goes for any gun even a 9mm. Whether they would investigate if hearing a noise or ignore it and go back to sleep depends on their nature. People in with large households areless likely to investigate. That is because they are more apt to hear noises from others in the household while in bed and also figure they will let someone else investigate th enoise and go right back to sleep. Kids in particular seem to ignore a bomb going off and to not investigate. Try getting them to get up for school! ANother thing is how fast it happened. SOme peopel will take a while before they finally get up to investigate. He coudl have killed them so fast not enough time elapsed for them to fully wake up and get out of bed. How long doe sit take to get awake enough to actually get up?

You want loud you hear a gunpoweder plant blow up. When I was growing up there was a gunpowder manufacturer nearby. 4 buildings blew up. It was 6AM. Each was not only way louder than a gunshot would have been if fired in a nearby house or fired outside the house it registered on the Richter scale. Miles around houses had damaged chimneys, foundations and various windows blew out.

I got out of bed instantly, I knew it was an explosion. I thought it was a bomb or gas station blowing up. The explosions were at various intervals as each building went. I thus heard all 4. After the third my parents got up. After the 4th my brother finally woke up and got up. My grandmother assumed it was thunder and stayed in bed. I don't know how the hell they didn't wake up the first blast it was the most powerful and shook the house the worst, the crucifix in my room fell off the wall. The newspaper didn't say what happened till the next day. At school I was the only one who heard 4 explosions. Some of my classmates heard nothing and slept through it.

If the explosions were gunshots everyone in my house would have been shot in bed except me (unless I was the first one being shot). I'm a horrible sleeper though I can't fall asleep and anything will wake me. Unless the shooter took a long time to go room to room it is easy to see how everyone can be shot in bed. Most people are not going to pop out of bed the way I do.

Some of my classmates heard nothing, that really amazed me. It's not my only experience like that though. In the field they woke us with loud artillery fire and some didn't wake up and many who did took a long time to actually get up it sometimes took kicking and knocking tents down to get them up.

Videos of shots are not all that useful because they don't show us what we really want to see. Fire a Marlin in a typical house and let us listen in a nearby room to what it sounds like. That would be more useful. Still there are other variables than just the walls, the habits of the sleepers are key. Unfortunately we had no one familiar with the sleeping habits of the DeFeos to consult. What position did each usually sleep in and how sound did they sleep?

Louise definitely woke up because she was starting to pick herself up when she was shot. She did not get very far though before she was shot.

Allison woke up but likely didn't get out of bed. When he opened her door she got a face full of rifle and he shot before she could react. He said Dawn woke up but he sent her back to bed. The boys could have slept through it or could have been woken up but were scared and just stayed in bed.

Dawn was the furthest away so she had the most opportunity to both hear something and actually react before being shot. Ron was upon Allison and then his brothers pretty quick so they didn't get much time to react to what ever they heard. Dawn had enough time to actually get out of bed and investigate. Moreover she heard more noises than anyone else since she was the last one shot.

The interesting part of the medical testimony is that it is saying he shot them all pretty close up but the powder burns were washed away. That suggests he walked pretty close to the bed to shoot all of them not just his sisters. That explains further how he didn't miss. The shooting trajectory in that position will obviously be way different than if the victim had been standing. That further demolishes any claim they were staged in bed. There is almost no way to get the trajectory to line up if they had been standing unless shot by a midget.

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:06 pm

Ok. I sought your opinion because you're credible and rational in your analyses. The you tube vids I watched showed me a couple of things. One, the obvious sound. Man, all these years, I've argued your position and it's acceptable when applying it to the success of Ronnie's actions; however, even just watching them, I really was astounded by the noise. It really was incredible. Two, it seemed the further the shooter was away from his target, the more damage caused to the target. One guy shot at pumpkins less than 50 ft away and obliterated them.

Concerning the article reporting Mrs. DeFeo's last moments, her reaction was much much more than even what HH cited. The ME testified she was attempting to actually get out of bed. This was "news" to me because all these years, I felt her reaction was less than this.

Everytime I think I've read it all, there's always something else I come across that jars my initial comprehension of the commission of this crime.

Baffling to say the least.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

scipio-USMC
Amityville Maniac
Posts: 1693

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by scipio-USMC » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:56 pm

astonio wrote:Ok. I sought your opinion because you're credible and rational in your analyses. The you tube vids I watched showed me a couple of things. One, the obvious sound. Man, all these years, I've argued your position and it's acceptable when applying it to the success of Ronnie's actions; however, even just watching them, I really was astounded by the noise. It really was incredible. Two, it seemed the further the shooter was away from his target, the more damage caused to the target. One guy shot at pumpkins less than 50 ft away and obliterated them.

Concerning the article reporting Mrs. DeFeo's last moments, her reaction was much much more than even what HH cited. The ME testified she was attempting to actually get out of bed. This was "news" to me because all these years, I felt her reaction was less than this.

Everytime I think I've read it all, there's always something else I come across that jars my initial comprehension of the commission of this crime.

Baffling to say the least.

I learned early on that what you expect people to do in situations and what they actually do are often 2 different things. Since the general expectation was that they would wake and get up one has to wonder what was going through Ron's mind. Was he waiting for them to come into the hall to shoot them or did he just go rush in their room hoping to get to them before they came ou. If we are surprised he had to have been even more surprised. The unexpected happens all the time because our expectations are shaped by either an ignorance of realtime experience (shaped by books, TV etc) or ignorance of the nature/habits of the people involved. One of Murphy's Rules of Combat is that professionals are predictable but the World is full of amateurs.

Something I find striking is that he didn't reload and shoot his sister in the hall. He waited for her to go back to bed. Either it took him some time to go get more ammunition or he wasn't prepared to confront and shoot them on site. If he wasn't prepared to shoot them on site and wanted to only shoot them in bed one has to wonder even more why he started with them all in the house. It speaks even more to it being spontaneous than planned.

I think people would be surprised about how loud most guns are rifle or handgun. People get conditioned by TV. Even after listening to videos of shooting I think you would be surprised by the sound in a room compared to outdoors. It does make a difference in terms of the ringing in your ears. Something I did not mention is that the sound can be reduced by the barrel being up against something. SO if he had the gun against a pill, comforter or skin even for example that will reduce the sound some.

HH and what the ME testified to are reconcilable in that the ME was tooking about the intent of her movements overall not speaking to how far she got. He took her lifting hershelf up and turning to be attempting to get out of bed. It doesn't mean she got very far just that is what he believes she was trying to do. We can all figure out that's why she would be trying to lift herself up so not really a big deal. What matters most when you look at expert testimony is the exact positioning they speak of. I have not seen anything to indicate that anyone thought she managed to raise up much beyond turning on her side and being slightly elevated. Her reaction does support your suggestion that Ron was surprised by this and that was why he shot her. We will never know if he started out with the intention to kill all of them or just his father.

Just one last thing to make your mind wonder even more. He was in fact worried about sound because he wanted a silencer. That means he was aware of the issue. He had a Marlin Model 60 .22 caliber rifle not merely a Marlin .35 rifle. The 22 held 15 shots so he could have shot all of them twice plus had 3 more to spare. It is not by any means silent but is not anywhere near as loud as the 35. Why choose the 35 which really was overkill anyway?

User avatar
astonio
Resident
Posts: 941
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The way Ronnie shot his parents and siblings

Post by astonio » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:32 pm

I actually have thought about his choice of weapon. And I recall Bobby Kelske's testimony or statement to police concerning Ronnie looking for a silencer before the murders. I did not know (because I cannot profess to have extensive knowledge of fire arms) a .22 is quieter than a .35. I know he "accidentally" fired a round from the .35 at a friend's house weeks before the murders. I wonder why he chose the .35? Maybe to in fact "overkill"? That would put me into the mind of a lunatic and I tread lightly because my rationale would not be his. Interesting you mention he could have shot Dawn on site rather than wait for her to return to bed. Even if more of them awoke and went to investigate, he still had the control because by that point, Mr. and Mrs. DeFeo would have been taken care of and the kids wouldn't pose a threat to him with this rifle in hand. That is something to ponder. Maybe it had to do with his ideal of order over the crime, I really can't say. And then, as I mentioned regarding the pumpkins, the .35 does some serious damage. This brings me the horrific thought of shooting the kids with such a powerful rifle. He definitely was aiming for ultimate destruction and I'm astounded by the horror of that alone. He's certainly a prize. And why didn't he just shoot Dawn in the hallway? Did it have to do with his needing to reload the weapon? Is it that he wanted to ensure she, too, would be found in bed like the rest? Or, did it have to do with the fact he still needed to move about the house and didn't want to have a victim visible as he made his movements? Yes, this does cause me to ponder and question this part of the crime. And I've resigned that any lingering questions I have will never be answered because what's done was done.

Could it be possible that his choice of weapon have to do with certainty of death? Could any of them, aside from the girls, survive their gunshot wounds from a .22 vs. a .35? Also, he was methodical and I do not mean just with going from room to room, but rather, he made sure not to just put the dog outside, but he locked Shaggy in the trash shelter before he began. So when I retrace his actions from what has been documented or stated or that he confessed to, he gets up from the TV room at some point, gets the rifle, loads it and sometime in the process of this goes to the first floor to secure the dog, returns to the second floor and begins, dispatches everyone on that floor and then somewhere in there has to reload and dispatch Dawn, collect the shell casings, shower and change and return Shaggy to the inside of the house before (or during) places the contents he deems incriminating into pillowcases, drives to the dock to dispose of the weapon and drives to Brooklyn from Amityville to dispose of the pillowcases and then has breakfast to await the dealership to open, leaves work early to return to Amityville to enact his alibi and ends up "discovering" the family has been killed and then the events as we know take place.

In a word...wow.

But, say his intent was just to shoot his father...I'm thinking anyone who commits any crime does not want to get caught...did he simply not think there are five other family members still capable of implicating him? I don't understand the logic. I'll shoot my father, but what about my mother and the kids? Then it brings me back to this: he would have loaded the rifle to capacity. There could have been but one reason for this. He definitely was out to kill them all.
"Everywhere I went wuz like uh telephone; no answer."

Post Reply