Everything offending everybody

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:53 pm

You really don't know their reasons? You're calling them fascists without even hearing them out? :naughty:

From what I have read, apparently Churchill was a huge racist. And apparently a lot of historians say that his status as a hero is based more on his uplifting speeches rather than his actual decision-making during the war.

And this debate is not new. Here's a video from 2 years ago with the byline "Should We Be Ashamed of Churchill?". Note that the lady in yellow does not condone taking down his statue, but the objections she has about Churchill are shared by those who do want his statues taken down today.



In the end, however, this is a British leader, and not being English, myself, I don't really feel comfortable suggesting what they do with their own statues or telling them how they should feel about their own leaders.


Lincoln is a different matter. F*ck that guy! :hammer:

Just kidding. Of course Lincoln was a true American hero. :beer:

You seem to imply that people want Lincoln's statue removed because they dislike the man. But that is not the case at all.

People have a problem with one statue of Lincoln. A statue of a slave kneeling at Lincoln's feet. And the problem is with the way the slave is depicted.



Some people feel that this is degrading. If black men are equal to white men, then why is he kneeling? To them, it shows the black man as more of an animal, half-naked and in shackles being "blessed" by the all-powerful white man with the gift of equality.

Others say that the slave is simply thanking Lincoln for his work in ending slavery. That's how I view it, and that is most likely what the artist intended -- but people can look at the exact same thing and get a very different message from it. This statue has been controversial ever since it was first erected.

Funny thing is, back when Lincoln was still alive, he actually did have black people come and kneel in front of him. This reportedly embarrassed Lincoln greatly, and he would tell them, "Don't kneel to me -- that is not right."

So it would seem that Lincoln, himself, would also be in favor of this statue's removal...

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:25 am

As a British I'm fully proud of Churchill, he is a hero.

Dan, you live in the US right? Using GMB as a source is not good. Unless you value Karens opinion as the epitome of truth.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:02 am

It's not Karen's views I was going for. It seemed that Afua Hirsch's viewpoints were very similar to the viewpoints of today's protesters who wish the Churchill statues removed.

And Piers Morgan's viewpoints seemed to be along the same lines of what you guys have been posting.

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:52 am

Dan the Damned wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:02 am
It's not Karen's views I was going for. It seemed that Afua Hirsch's viewpoints were very similar to the viewpoints of today's protesters who wish the Churchill statues removed.

And Piers Morgan's viewpoints seemed to be along the same lines of what you guys have been posting.
I wouldn't know, maybe Piers read my posts?

Anyway, I'm a little perplexed why someone would choose to remove a statue of a celebrated hero. There's a really good movie about Churchill that was made recently. Definitely recommend that to you Dan.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Brendan72
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Brendan72 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:07 pm

I am extremely suspicious of who is the real driving force behind this removal of statues. First it is Confederate statues (incidentally 9 out of 11 of the statues were of men who were Democrats, go figure) and these represent a dark history in the South and therefore reasonable to have removed.

But now there appears to be a co-opted momentum towards the removal of others such as Churchill and Lincoln. The protests that commenced were (and are) for legitimate reasons, but there is a radicalized element that has hijacked the movement, continuing the momentum to an outcome which the silent majority do not want.

As an Australian I am not a huge fan of Winston Churchill (primarily because of what happened in Gallipoli in WW1) when he was Lord of the Admiralty. That being said I am not going to jump up and down and demand his statue be removed for that reason.
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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:07 pm

The Democrat and Republican parties were kinda "reversed" back when our Civil War was happening. That's why Lincoln was a Republican. In today's political climate, Lincoln would be a Democrat.

Over time, the Republicans became more conservative and the Democrats became more liberal, in effect, "switching sides" so to speak.

So yeah, there was a time when all the racists were Democrats.

Here's a good video talking about the Confederate statues. Note the speaker ends with "Taking down these monuments will not cure the problem, but it is at least an indication that we are ready to deal with the truth."



Regarding the statues of others who were racist (or had other flaws) but also did good things that benefited society -- yeah, I hear what you guys are saying. It's a tough call. No pun intended, but it's not always so black and white.

Here's a short video clip from last year where Obama talks about how people have flaws. He's talking about the "call-out culture" on social media, but it also applies to the topic we're talking about. And that's one reason why I said I don't feel right telling the British how they should feel about their own flawed heroes.



Yeah, unless it's a real clear-cut thing, I don't feel comfortable telling people how they should think about their own heroes and such. Likewise, unless I have very strong feelings about it, I don't feel comfortable telling black people how they should feel when looking at certain statues.

Like I said in my last post, when I look at the "Emancipation Memorial" (that's the controversial statue featuring Lincoln and a kneeling slave, which people want taken down), I see a depiction of Lincoln's legacy: the freeing an enslaved man. The depicted slave is in bad shape, representing how horrible they were treated.

But a black person can look at that same statue and say to me, "You don't see anything wrong with this? That black man is half naked and crouching down in chains! He's being presented as an animal. Totally subservient to the all-powerful white man, who seems to be ordaining the slave's freedom as if he were on the same level as Jesus and the black man was some ignorant piece of trash that needs to be led around and told what to do by the white man."

And if people see that in the statue -- if it really offends them -- why not remove it? If it makes some people feel this way, then it is not having its desired effect, and it should be replaced with something else. Perhaps a statue of Lincoln and Barack Obama, standing side by side as equals? That sounds nice to me! And it seems very fitting.

The Emancipation Memorial stands in Washington DC. There is a copy of the statue in Boston which will be removed by the city soon and put into storage.

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Anarane
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Anarane » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:47 am

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am

I don't think you know what you're talking about so not going to waste much time replying.
Fortunately for me, I don't think you don't know what you're talking about. I KNOW you don't.
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am

If black persons were qualified then they would be getting the job now, and they are doing. Now there is a culture of they will look at their skin colour first and try to slot them based on qualifications to make up the 2/10. I've seen people not qualified at all for jobs who are getting employed, so its not quantifiable. Its absolutely positive discrimination but will be masked as something else.
I've already explained why this isn't true. I've already linked you to prove that BAME people make up less than 11% of boardroom appointments. But here's more stats given you're doubling down on your delightful casual racism to show that it's not just a boardroom issue – https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... -ethnicity

Oh, and here's some more: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/ ... statistics

Not sure how all these BAME people are stealing jobs they're not qualified for given the unemployment rates were significantly higher for ethnic minorities at 12.9 per cent compared with 6.3 per cent for White people; Black workers with degrees earn 23.1 per cent less on average than White workers, and in Britain, significantly lower percentages of ethnic minorities (8.8 per cent) worked as managers, directors and senior officials, compared with White people (10.7 per cent) and this was particularly true for African or Caribbean or Black people (5.7 per cent) and those of mixed ethnicity (7.2 per cent).

Black people who leave school with A-levels typically get paid 14.3 per cent less than their White peers.

So can you show me again – with hard evidence as I have done here – that black people are stealing jobs they're not qualified for?
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am

If you support pulling down statues which is surely illegal then why are you even in the country to begin with. Respect history and stop trying to rewrite it. Churchill helped save our country in the war and anyone who says his statue should be removed doesn't have the right to an opinion.
But it was ok when we did it in Bagdad, right?

As I said right at the beginning, no-one's asking to rewrite history. It can still be taught in schools and statues should be saved and displayed in museums. We just shouldn't be celebrating those whose wealth, success and legacy came at the cost of the exploitation of others.

As for "doesn't have the right to an opinion"? Lol, OK, boomer.
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am

Not going to say you need your head checked or anything because you're not aware of the facts thats all.
Given how hysterically wrong you've been about the law thus far – and you seem to have glossed over the fact I told you I'm a lawyer, right? :rotate: – I'm going to say that goes both ways, good buddy.
Brendan72 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:50 pm
The real reason or what MSM are telling us?
You always know you're walking into fun times when the MSM comes up. Dude, there is no single, narrative-spinning mainstream media. There are outlets that are liberal and outlets that are conservative. End of. You drink your Fox News coolaid, I drink my CNN coolaid but one side isn't better or more impartial than the other. They ALL have biases and the ALL an agenda but Fox News/OANN is as much in the mainstream as CNN is.
Dan the Damned wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:55 am
Funny how you guys fail to mention the reasons people are giving for wanting the statues of Lincoln and Churchill taken down. Almost like you haven't bothered to check it out. :think:
I know, right?! XD
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:52 am

Anyway, I'm a little perplexed why someone would choose to remove a statue of a celebrated hero.
That's weird, given I've already explained why twice in this thread already.
Dan the Damned wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:07 pm

Here's a good video talking about the Confederate statues. Note the speaker ends with "Taking down these monuments will not cure the problem, but it is at least an indication that we are ready to deal with the truth."
What a great quote, Dan – thank you! <3

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:14 pm

I'm with Piers on this one, probably the best thing i've seen of him since leaving 'murica. Saving the world from Hitler is far more important than him hating Indians.

The world has moved on so no I absolutely stand by my comments about his statue.
Fortunately for me, I don't think you don't know what you're talking about. I KNOW you don't
Wow, that's such a childish thing to say. This "lawyer" (or did you mean solicitor?) Isn't worth the time of day.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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Dan the Damned
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Dan the Damned » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:18 pm

Amit Y Ville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 am
I don't think you know what you're talking about so not going to waste much time replying.
Anarane wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:47 am
Fortunately for me, I don't think you don't know what you're talking about. I KNOW you don't.
Amit Y Ville wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:14 pm
Wow, that's such a childish thing to say.
Amit, I'm not sure which line you think is childish here. The one you originally wrote, or the one Anarane responded with. lol

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Anarane
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Anarane » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:50 am

Ha! :clap: Thanks, Dan. :)

I said lawyer because I wasn't 100% sure if you were in the UK or Stateside, Amit, but I'm a barrister, actually, specialising in employment, education, and employers' liability chiefly around discrimination and dismissal/employment rights. I honestly couldn't give two tin sh!ts if you believe me or not, although a not insignificant part of me feels like dropping a link to my firm's website right here so we can help you fight those dreadful illegal positive discrimination cases.

Oh, I also write about video games on the side! Admittedly not as often as I'd like, though.
So can you show me again – with hard evidence as I have done here – that black people are stealing jobs they're not qualified for?
Still waiting for your response for this. Suspect I'll be waiting for some time, though...

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by Amit Y Ville » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:19 am

The movement has only just started so doubt you're going to see analysis on it yet, maybe you can check in three months.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

gd134
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Re: Everything offending everybody

Post by gd134 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:28 am

I just now saw this post and I totally agree. This world has gone mad, especially here in the US. It doesn't matter what statue it is, it will be vandalized no matter what like the Lincoln memorial. I'm not gonna lie, some statues I do support tearing down. But others deserve to stay standing for the great history and achievements they resemble. I'm thankful that president Trump signed an executive order demanding 10 year prison sentences to people who tear down federal statues because this behavior is just disgusting. Based on what I see, the democratic party gets 90% of the black vote today because they've somehow convinced blacks that they're being hunted down by the police. If the BLM movement gave a :) flower :) about black lives, the movement would address black-on-black more because that's what's harming the black community. Recently, 9 children died in Chicago for no reason because of black-on-black crime. Correct me if I'm wrong, but police brutality is rare and is highly exaggerated, and it's certainly not the black community's biggest issue. It's not even worth rioting for! This nation is not perfect, but it's not systemically racist. I would be more than happy to provide my evidence. If you wanna help the black community, please address the problems that are ACTUALLY holding it down, which are described by the leftist Don Lemon from CNN in this video: . That is the kind of thinking we need to solve these problems, because we are too politically correct. Did you know that the BLM movement insists that most blacks are incarcerated because the justice system in the U.S. is systemically racist? Nope, it's all due to culture and the fact that blacks just happen to commit more crime. Go ahead and call me a racist, but if we wanna solve problems in the black community, we need to stop the riots and look at facts. Please note, I'm just a 16 year old voicing my opinion as I observe the current "crisis".

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