The Colorado shootings

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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:55 pm

ooo man...Becks has on her "A" game...glad im not in the crosshairs...

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the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Grave
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Grave » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:54 am

so i just found out this morning that my aunts ex husband was beaten severely with a hammer and is in critical condition...i'm proposing they pass a law to ban hammers...only licensed contractors should own them
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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:09 am

*i wont laugh...i wont laugh*
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:13 am

Grave wrote:so i just found out this morning that my aunts ex husband was beaten severely with a hammer and is in critical condition...i'm proposing they pass a law to ban hammers...only licensed contractors should own them
I'm sorry to hear of your news.

What, pray tell, would we do when licensed contractors 'go postal' and start killing every human they can get their ball-peen hammers on? Should we merely outlaw 'claw' hammers, or every hammer in existence?
:think:
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:18 am

Howard64 wrote:ooo man...Becks has on her "A" game...glad im not in the crosshairs...

Image

Now brother you know very well this was not my *A* game ... Arch and I are far from done. That was Stage Three. Pray he does not reach Stage One.

I still love the dang MONKEY pic though!!! Jussssssst when I think I'm safe and you've forgotten it ... LOL

The next monitor is on you, if memory serves lol
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:33 pm

Grave wrote:so i just found out this morning that my aunts ex husband was beaten severely with a hammer and is in critical condition...i'm proposing they pass a law to ban hammers...only licensed contractors should own them
Well that added nothing to the discussion....I am sorry for your Aunts ex husband...but the rest of it was ridiculous

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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:50 pm

Simon later also said:

Amazingly the UK with a population of 62 million had only 14 firearm deaths, they must be doing something right.



Yes, and many criminologists, investigators, and detectives state that modern-day crime investigation owes much of it's roots to the Jack the Ripper murders. Oh but those were committed with blade instruments, and not a one of you wants to use overall weapons descriptions (including nuclear proliferation in many countries) as a valid topic. Hell no. Let's just discuss the guns, and totally ignore every single positive comment Howard made about responsible gun ownership, storage, and usage.
It is not about not wanting to discuss overall weapons descriptions....the title of the thread is "The Colorado Shootings", not the Colorado Knife attacks...
Let's say your data is accurate as per the reduction of arms. Did it help the situation? I think the point is debatable on a number of levels and subject to numerous aspects. Here's just one example. See if you can find one of my points in it:

In Australia, annual deaths resulting from firearms total:

2008: 225
2007: 404
2006: 229
2005: 187
2004: 201
2003: 287
2002: 293 <----
2001: 326
2000: 324
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
1984: 675
1983: 644
1982: 689
1981: 618
1980: 687
1979: 685
Well, going from your data from 1979 - 1997 there were an average of 676 firearm related deaths each year, post 1997 there were 285 per year...so did restrictions on access to some firearms and reduction in overall firearm numbers help...I would say yes.

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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:07 pm

Let's just discuss the guns, and totally ignore every single positive comment Howard made about responsible gun ownership, storage, and usage.
Really? Did I ignore every single positive comment Howard made about those things?
Fantastic Howard, you are a responsible gun owner and in a perfect world all gun owners should act the way that you do. Out of interest, is this something that you do yourself or is the storage of firearms and ammunition law?
Yep, I would agree with you, bot not automatic weapons.
On this we agree...
I am not sure why you are being so aggressive Beck, I have had a civil discussion and learned a lot while discussing and debating this with Howard, not sure that he needed you to jump in and fly the flag for him.

Also, in one of your points, you are quoting murders, not firearm fatalities, different argument.

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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:43 pm


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Grave
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Grave » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:10 pm

Simon wrote:
Grave wrote:so i just found out this morning that my aunts ex husband was beaten severely with a hammer and is in critical condition...i'm proposing they pass a law to ban hammers...only licensed contractors should own them
Well that added nothing to the discussion....I am sorry for your Aunts ex husband...but the rest of it was ridiculous
My point is that guns aren't the only tools that can be used to commit a violent crime...If they were to take away the guns from us law abiding citizens then only criminals, law enforcement and military would have them...If we were to rely on law enforcement to be there at the drop of a hat in the event someone is being threatened in their home or whatever then we just become another statistic...
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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:04 pm

Grave wrote:
Simon wrote:
Grave wrote:so i just found out this morning that my aunts ex husband was beaten severely with a hammer and is in critical condition...i'm proposing they pass a law to ban hammers...only licensed contractors should own them
Well that added nothing to the discussion....I am sorry for your Aunts ex husband...but the rest of it was ridiculous
My point is that guns aren't the only tools that can be used to commit a violent crime...If they were to take away the guns from us law abiding citizens then only criminals, law enforcement and military would have them...If we were to rely on law enforcement to be there at the drop of a hat in the event someone is being threatened in their home or whatever then we just become another statistic...
Yep, I get that, but this discussion is about firearms....firearms that are designed to kill, not sure how many hammers may have been used in homicides in recent times. I understand that other weapons are used in homicides, but this thread is debating firearms and their control of lack thereof. Others have quoted murder statistics where I was quoting murder by firearm statistics.

The majority of Police in Britain do not carry firearms, in the US in 2009 there were over 9000 murders by firearm,at the same time in Britain there were 39, I am not 100 % sure what the British firearm laws are, I am going to find out what I can.

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Grave
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Grave » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:36 pm

Simon wrote: Yep, I get that, but this discussion is about firearms....firearms that are designed to kill, not sure how many hammers may have been used in homicides in recent times. I understand that other weapons are used in homicides, but this thread is debating firearms and their control of lack thereof. Others have quoted murder statistics where I was quoting murder by firearm statistics.

The majority of Police in Britain do not carry firearms, in the US in 2009 there were over 9000 murders by firearm,at the same time in Britain there were 39, I am not 100 % sure what the British firearm laws are, I am going to find out what I can.
Of course firearms are made to kill...i own guns for protection, not conversational pieces to a would be threat...A lot of our problem in the states is the illegal immigrants that cross over our borders and commit violent crimes...In all honesty, this thread isn't going to change anyones views one way or the other in regards of firearms...
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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:44 pm

Grave wrote:
Simon wrote: Yep, I get that, but this discussion is about firearms....firearms that are designed to kill, not sure how many hammers may have been used in homicides in recent times. I understand that other weapons are used in homicides, but this thread is debating firearms and their control of lack thereof. Others have quoted murder statistics where I was quoting murder by firearm statistics.

The majority of Police in Britain do not carry firearms, in the US in 2009 there were over 9000 murders by firearm,at the same time in Britain there were 39, I am not 100 % sure what the British firearm laws are, I am going to find out what I can.
Of course firearms are made to kill...i own guns for protection, not conversational pieces to a would be threat...A lot of our problem in the states is the illegal immigrants that cross over our borders and commit violent crimes...In all honesty, this thread isn't going to change anyones views one way or the other in regards of firearms...
Grave, I know you do believe the thread's commentary will not change some folks' minds. But I'm willing to attempt that outside chance that it may.

Also, Grave just raised one of the very same points I was planning on using as proof that Simon's comparisons are tucked all-too-tidily into a scientific vacuum: there are too many differences between America and Australia, and high on the list would be that the USA is bordered by a problematic/affective element, whereas obviously Australia is not.
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:47 pm

Comparing the USA and AUS as candidates for firearm restriction/reduction is ludicrous for numerous reasons.

Secondly, Simon's claims are obviously subjective to political agendas in Australia. I was going to soften that aspect, but since he wishes to insult me directly, fine. I'll merely remove my gloves as well.
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:45 am

Simon wrote:
Let's say your data is accurate as per the reduction of arms. Did it help the situation? I think the point is debatable on a number of levels and subject to numerous aspects. Here's just one example. See if you can find one of my points in it:

In Australia, annual deaths resulting from firearms total:

2008: 225
2007: 404
2006: 229
2005: 187
2004: 201
2003: 287
2002: 293 <----
2001: 326
2000: 324
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
1984: 675
1983: 644
1982: 689
1981: 618
1980: 687
1979: 685
Well, going from your data from 1979 - 1997 there were an average of 676 firearm related deaths each year, post 1997 there were 285 per year...so did restrictions on access to some firearms and reduction in overall firearm numbers help...I would say yes.
In the first place your first claim -- that the average of firearm-related deaths between 1979--1997 -- is completely incorrect. The average for those years is 607+change.

The point was, despite this supposed reduction, the numbers still fluctuate by hundreds in a single year's time. And surely as an Australian, you must be aware that your view of the effects of this reduction are hotly contended in your country, and have been for *decades*.

Yet not once did you make any real mention of how diversely different groups look upon the topic:
A 2008 study on the effects of the firearm buybacks by Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi of Melbourne University's Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research studied the data and concluded, "Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates." --Wikipedia
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:56 am

Simon wrote:Fantastic Howard, you are a responsible gun owner and in a perfect world all gun owners should act the way that you do.
Simon wrote:Really? Did I ignore every single positive comment Howard made about those things?
IMHO yes. Isn't that first quote of yours ("Fantastic," "perfect world...") a direct disagreement with what Howard's stated here? Toward him I felt there were numerous comments outside the definition of civil debate.
I doubt you'll be able to ignore the same with mine.
Simon wrote:"The right to bare arms" is an outdated law that was probably relevant in the 1800's.
Actually the right to bear arms also deals with one's right to protect oneself against a militia that's acting outside the defined auspices of the US Constitution. And it was crafted -- and quite relevant -- in the 1700's, not the 1800's.
:fp:
Simon wrote:Yep, I would agree with you, bot not automatic weapons.
Again, perhaps you may learn far more from the US Constitution. It covers this aspect far better than any ATB poster could.
Simon wrote:I am not sure why you are being so aggressive Beck, I have had a civil discussion and learned a lot while discussing and debating this with Howard, not sure that he needed you to jump in and fly the flag for him.
Your comment is both insulting and woefully off the mark. Howard and I discussed this matter *several* days before I posted. He's fully aware I'm not here as a support to him; rather, my first posts were to point out problems I saw with the thread so far. But yes, before I could even reach my own opinions, I exercised my freedom to criticize comments made toward him. But I find it damned offensive you'd suggest Howard would in any way need me to lobby on his behalf, and I damned well don't appreciate it.

If you insist on laboring under this false impression, then you should have paid closer attention to my comments about my own gun ownership. It was a preamble to my future posts.

However it seems I'll be doing more 'housecleaning' on other posts beforehand.

Fine by me.

Oh, and "aggresive?"
Radiomixer to Simon wrote:Too many aspects of both your claims are presented in a nice tidy scientific vacuum, where you both omit so many other applicable facts. However, I give you far more credit than Arch, that's for sure. At least the data you HAVE posted is SO much closer to reality, and you look at the topic on a global scale, rather than erroneously insisting that the USA is the Worst in the World. I do respect that very much, and that's not sarcasm.
Radiomixer to Simon wrote:THANK YOU! I went over countless websites for over two hours (yes!) and could not find your source to save my life, so thank you for ending my search.
Radiomixer to Simon wrote:However, I find fault with your data, sorry.
Radiomixer to Simon wrote:I'm sorry but that single, dated source is not sufficient.
Radiomixer to Simon wrote:So Simon, we approach data far differently, and again, I give you high praise for your attempt -- we just differ on what we consider to be viable data.
Wow! I'm so agressive I can't hardly manage any manners at all, right Simon?

More to the point, isn't this really about the fact that you're still basing your comments on one single stacked set of data that is [1.] dated over a decade old (and hotly contended in the years since), [2.] based on a single flawed source, and [3.] has since been proven to be inaccurate?

Where's your explanation for that? Where's your substitution for that? A lot easier to attack the poster rather than pay a little attention to defending your own claims, isn't that right, Simon?
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:01 am

To quote a phrase that seems popular...
"In a perfect world..." there would be no need for firearms
and I would gladly do without mine. But as long as there are
lawbreakers, rapists, thieves and murderers, I will remain armed
as the 2nd amendment allows me to be so.

Becks did not post at my behest, she posted of her own accord, it
is her right to do so. The first amendment dictates so.

I do not need her to help me support my claim. I am grateful that
she DID post. She is my sister and for her to do anything less would
have been out of character for her.

The way I see things concerning this topic; some folks will not change
their views on the subject of firearms. My intention was initially to
illustrate that not ALL gun owners are unstable nutcases who should NOT have them.

This did not stop some from coming out and making comments as they
did. This is fine; they are opinions and views...and they cannot hurt me nor
do i lay awake at night and lament over who may or may not like me at this board.

I sleep very well knowing my wife and I are protected.

Thank you dear sister for your support in this:)

Time for the holy of holies...Starbucks Coffee, with a hint of cinnamon.
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by sherbetbizarre » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:29 am

I think one thing us non-Americans have a hard time getting our heads around, is the idea you need guns for protection... in your own home! :shock:

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Grave
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Grave » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:21 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:I think one thing us non-Americans have a hard time getting our heads around, is the idea you need guns for protection... in your own home! :shock:
It's not that hard to imagine...Isn't the UK's highest percentage of crime burglary?..
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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:02 am

sherbetbizarre wrote:I think one thing us non-Americans have a hard time getting our heads around, is the idea you need guns for protection... in your own home! :shock:
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"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

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sherbetbizarre
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by sherbetbizarre » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:55 am

We have burglary, but very rarely armed home invasion.

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