The Colorado shootings

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Howard64
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The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:07 am

I am very distressed by what has happened. I am sure most of you
know the details by now. So many lost their lives in such a short
time span. Life is sacred and for something violent like this to
happen makes many of us sad, angry, enraged, a whole plethora
of emotions.

I would like to say that while I am deeply saddened at the loss of
those lives, I am also worried that something else will happen as a result.

There are many people in this country who are not only law abiding
but mentally stable as well. They show responsibility when it comes to owning
firearms and go their whole lives without a single mishap.

I do not wish to start some holy war here over this, rather I would hope
that those of us here would consider that there are those of us who are
as I described above. Please do not let the actions of this person bias
your opinion about responsible gun owners.

As far as the killer is concerned, I think it likely he may not be living for
long. But that is for the courts and God to decide.

Thank you folks for your time.

Howard64
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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tomspy77
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by tomspy77 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:12 am

There are many people in this country who are not only law abiding
but mentally stable as well. They show responsibility when it comes to owning
firearms and go their whole lives without a single mishap.

I do not wish to start some holy war here over this, rather I would hope
that those of us here would consider that there are those of us who are
as I described above. Please do not let the actions of this person bias
your opinion about responsible gun owners.
:clap:

I agree...owning a weapon and being able to defend one's life and property (and liberty) is one of the reasons we started this country and I agree with most of those original sound principles.

Also...

Get one citizen in that theater who has the right to conceal and carry and I think some life might have been spared. Some might say that would lead to an even bigger mess but a responsible and WELL TRAINED shooter would have been able to help.

At the very least he could have returned fire, something Holmes was not expecting and probably would not know how to handle.

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radiomixer
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by radiomixer » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:09 am

Howard64 wrote:I would like to say that while I am deeply saddened at the loss of
those lives, I am also worried that something else will happen as a result.
As you may know, Bro, I've been doing another experiment and keeping my TV off for one week now (that's nothing, I once cut it off for two years, and it was fantastic). However, everywhere I go, I hear peeps saying the exact thing you just did.

All your points are valid -- well put.
tomspy77 wrote:Get one citizen in that theater who has the right to conceal and carry and I think some life might have been spared. Some might say that would lead to an even bigger mess but a responsible and WELL TRAINED shooter would have been able to help.

At the very least he could have returned fire, something Holmes was not expecting and probably would not know how to handle.
Also an excellent point, Tom, Bravo! I bet his 'planned for months' ambush would have ended mighty damn quick if he took on incoming fire -- one way or another. Cowards want defenseless victims. Defense of any kind would have shut him down fast (soiled britches included).
"I'm gonna tell you straight up. I didn't care who they blamed as long as it wasn't me. I mean, that's the bottom line. I did not care. I didn't care then and I don't care now." - Ronald DeFeo Jr. interview for "First Person Killers"

Bango Skank
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Bango Skank » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:30 am

interestingly enough, the theater has a no gun policy, I wonder if things would have turned out differently if they didn't

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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:08 pm

Perhaps something like what the Washington Post
recently reported on...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Here is the video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIZvmBkeJYY
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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tomspy77
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by tomspy77 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:35 pm

I know and talk to a lot of cops now that I'm back in Illinois and recently me and an officer were discussing conceal and carry and how the best would be the little old granny defending herself with a .22 or some such as she would not be accused of being overly violent or trigger happy, so this news story is exactly the kind of examples we need.

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KevinW
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by KevinW » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:21 pm

Personally, I think that somebody with a legal concealed gun in that theater would have been a bad thing. Think about it. With all of the chaos going on with the tear gas and people running, how would somebody with a gun have been able to get a clear shot at the psycho. Plus, think about what would happen if the police come in and see somebody with a gun. They wouldn't know until it was too late who the shooter was and who was protecting himself and others.

One thing that sickens me is how the Westboro Baptist Church/Cult was going to protest the memorial service yesterday. Honestly, don't they have better things to do? One of these days, they're gonna go protest the wrong event and set somebody off.

Kevin
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tomspy77
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by tomspy77 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:00 am

I can understand your concerns Kevin, although I disagree about the first point you made. I think even with all that was going on that even a shot into the ceiling might have sufficed to scare this creepo into making mistakes.

A little more understandable is the point about law enforcement not knowing who is the perp and who is the citizen, but that is a risk I think we might have to take in this climate of violence if we want to protect ourselves, especially in the urban areas like Chicago, New York or Detroit.

I 100% agree about that "church", they deserve more then a wall of love, what they need is a wall of bricks dropped on their heads.

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tomspy77
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by tomspy77 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:04 am

This is what really always worries me when crap like this occurs, its all the copycats.

The first guy was drunk and the second seemed to be targeting his boss, not random people (although all that firepower and ammo for one man is extreme overkill), but the third guy deserves to be beaten a bit if not for stupidity then for being shallow and ignorant:
In southern California, a man at a Sunday afternoon showing of the film was arrested after witnesses said he made threats and alluded to the Colorado shooting when the film did not start.

Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies were called to a cinema complex in Norwalk after moviegoers said 52-year-old Clark Tabor shouted: "I should go off like in Colorado." They said he then asked: "Does anybody have a gun?"

A security guard saw Tabor with a backpack on his knees in the second row, but deputies who searched the bag, the theatre and its surrounding area did not find any weapon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rests.html

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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by tomspy77 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:02 am

Moviegoers panicked and fled a screening of "The Dark Knight Rises" when a fight broke out inside a theater in Pennsylvania on Sunday.

Just two days after a gunman opened fire and killed 12 people at a "Dark Knight" premiere in Colorado, ticket holders were nearly trampled by a fearful audience at a Loews theater near Pittsburgh, according to the Post-Gazette.

The stampede began when two people started yelling inside.

"There were two people who got into an argument, and one person yelled something that induced people to get into a panic," Witness Colin Marks, 25, told the paper.

The entire audience evacuated so quickly that witnesses said they had to dodge people who fell to the ground. Two people suffered minor injuries in the melee.

"It was scary. People were screaming. Everyone was running, kind of pushing each other. People were dropping things. Everyone was getting down. It was definitely chaotic. Everyone's heart was racing," one witness told WPXI.

The theater handed out free movie passes after the chaos. Officers from the Homestead police department and canine units responded to the scene after a 911 call was made, but there were no arrests.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... _ref=crime

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tomspy77
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by tomspy77 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:09 pm

I'm intrigued by this case guys, so excuse all the random posts...this one proves he is either nuts or faking it well:
Accused movie theater gunman James Holmes is spitting at jail officers so frequently that at one point he was made to wear a face guard, sources told ABC News.

Holmes' odd behavior was first seen by the public when he appeared in court Monday looking dazed, alternately bug-eyed and nodding with his eyes closing.

But ABC News has learned that his loopy court appearance was just one of several bizarre behaviors.

In the hours after his arrest Friday for the massacre at the Aurora, Colo., movie theater, Holmes stared at the wall in the Arapahoe Police Headquarters with his eyebrows twitching.

Holmes told police he was the fictitious Batman villain, the Joker, and when cops put evidence bags over his hands to preserve traces of gunpowder residue, he pretended the bags were puppets, law enforcement sources told ABC News affiliate KMGH-TV in Denver

"I think there are two possibilities going on here," Marissa Randazzo, former chief research psychologist for the U.S. Secret Service and an expert in mass shootings, told "Good Morning America" today.

"One is that he is in the middle of a psychotic episode which is quite possible. We see him distracted at multiple points, an almost sort of 'coming to' and trying to figure out where he is and process what's going on," she said.

"The other thing that we're seeing -- and we've seen some of this behavior in the past couple months -- might suggest mania. Meaning hyperactivity, hyper energy, been possibly up and not sleeping for days. What we might be seeing here is the post effects."

But Randazzo also said there was a third possibility. He might simply be faking it.

"It's possible," she said when asked if Holmes' behavior could be all an act. "It is possible. We'll leave that open," she said, adding that most people who lie about that sort of behavior are sociopaths and "What we've heard about his history does not suggest sociopath at all."

"Let's keep that in mind that he was studying neuroscience. He was studying exactly the type of brain issues that we're going to be talking about throughout this whole case," she said.
Early days i know, but what do you guys think, is he insane or just trying not to get the death penalty by being unfit to stand trial? :think:

Edit: After reading this at Huffington, I say faking it:
The school refuses to say what specifically Holmes studied. But an online syllabus listed him as making a presentation in May during a class called "Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... 00164.html

He has the knowledge to know just what to do to appear unfit for trial.

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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:37 pm

Does no one think that tighter gun control laws could reduce the possibility of these things happening? The US has around 9400 firearm homicides per year compared to Australia that has around 60 firearm homicides, granted the US has 15 times the population of Australia but even on a per capita basis that is the equivalent of 900 firearm deaths. Australian gun control laws were tightened considerably following the Port Arthur massacre in 1996 in which 35 people were killed.

Apparently some 47% of households in the USA have firearms...I don't understand why you would need them, I also understand that the gun lobby over there is pretty powerful, I don't see any changes happening soon.

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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:50 pm

tomspy77 wrote:I can understand your concerns Kevin, although I disagree about the first point you made. I think even with all that was going on that even a shot into the ceiling might have sufficed to scare this creepo into making mistakes.

A little more understandable is the point about law enforcement not knowing who is the perp and who is the citizen, but that is a risk I think we might have to take in this climate of violence if we want to protect ourselves, especially in the urban areas like Chicago, New York or Detroit.

I 100% agree about that "church", they deserve more then a wall of love, what they need is a wall of bricks dropped on their heads.
What mistakes would a shot to ceiling "scare" this guy into making? The guy was apparently wearing a gas mask, a ballistic helmet, vest, throat and groin protectors and bullet resistant leggings, he went in there meaning business. After initially firing a 12-guage shotgun a couple of times he started unloading with a semi- automatic with a 100 round magazine, luckily the semi-automatic apparently jammed. The gun jamming is what I think saved a lot of people.

If other armed people in the theatre decided to try and take this guy down, I think it could have been a lot worse with people being caught in cross fire etc, they were in a darkened theatre with a smoke grenade or tear gas already having been let off.

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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:20 pm

Tighter gun laws would only make it harder for honest citizens
to get firearms. The criminal does not have to go to a gun store
to get what they want. In the case of this massacre, It changes things.

People MUST...MUST have a responsible outlook when it comes to
firearms. For example, when I am not target shooting, my firearms are
locked up and separate from my ammunition. I never "play" with my guns
nor do I allow others to mess with them.

Education is the best defense against accidents. Teaching responsibility
and handling would help those who do have firearms to better govern their
usage. I for one am an advocate for training. Go and learn how to handle a gun
before you go and use it.

Howard
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Simon
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Simon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:51 pm

Howard64 wrote:Tighter gun laws would only make it harder for honest citizens
to get firearms. The criminal does not have to go to a gun store
to get what they want. In the case of this massacre, It changes things.
...and why is that a bad thing? Why does the average citizen need firearms...especially semi or fully automatic weapons? These types of firearms should only be used by the armed services surely. I understand that farmers and members of shooting clubs etc obtain firearms for culling and sports shooting etc and I really don't see why tighter laws and checks would be a problem. If the person obtaining the firearm really is an "honest citizen" then it shouldn't be a problem to face tighter scrutiny when applying for a firearm or permit. I am sure that at least some of the people responsible for these types of massacres were "honest citizens" before something went horribly wrong.
People MUST...MUST have a responsible outlook when it comes to
firearms. For example, when I am not target shooting, my firearms are
locked up and separate from my ammunition. I never "play" with my guns
nor do I allow others to mess with them.
Fantastic Howard, you are a responsible gun owner and in a perfect world all gun owners should act the way that you do. Out of interest, is this something that you do yourself or is the storage of firearms and ammunition law?
Education is the best defense against accidents. Teaching responsibility
and handling would help those who do have firearms to better govern their
usage. I for one am an advocate for training. Go and learn how to handle a gun
before you go and use it.
Agreed....although in this instance we are not talking about accidents...

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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:27 pm

Automatic weapons are illegal, unless you have a class 3 federal permit
which is very difficult to get.

As far as owning weapons, for myself and most of the folks I know,
owning firearms are considered a hobby, used as tools or for survival.

Criminals get their guns from the black market Simon, they do not buy
them legally. Some citizens of this country hunt to survive by hunting
for what they need. I know of several families on a couple of reservations
who must hunt for food. Taking away gun rights would make life harder
for them.

As it is right now, background checks are done each time a firearms is
purchased or pick up from a pawn shop. In some states there is a waiting
period before you can walk out with the weapon.

No matter how you scrutinize a person there is no way to tell who is going
to go postal at a later date as with the shooter in Colorado. There is just
no way to test for that or check for it. Gun laws as they exist do screen
the buyer and if any hits such as domestic violence, ANY felony, or mental
instability comes up on the check, the individual is denied right away.

As far as storing ammunition separate from firearms is concerned, it is
common sense. And all of the people I know who own guns do the same thing.

I hope this all helps some...
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Architect of light 75
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Architect of light 75 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:29 am

Hi guys,

How are you doing ?

I agree with Simon, all those guns is not a solution. Cowboys managing their problems by killing easily with a gun... this time is over I'm sorry. If the US is the country where those horrible tragedies happens the most often is not random.

This is too much of a rich business (the weapons's). So it is never going to change. Even with a white, black, yellow, purple president, they are all so manipulated and corrupted that no one will ever change that law and it will be worse and worse.. congratulations... land of the free... to die like nowhere else...

It's time to wake up I believe and I do respect and can love all good people from anywhere but I can't agree with stubborn or corrupted persons who put their preferences first when it's clearly wrong. Now don't come with me telling me it also happens in my country because I know that. My county is not perfect, far from that and I spit on many wrong things they do but the US clearly is the champion for those weapons tragedies.

Take care.
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sherbetbizarre
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by sherbetbizarre » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:22 am

But Randazzo also said there was a third possibility...
And of course, a fourth...

Here Are the Most Insane Aurora Shooting Conspiracy Theories

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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:50 am

I can think of many other places that killings take place as well,
which goes to show you this is not a perfect world. Somalian war
lords. Heck even in Israel or Palestine people are killed as well.

There are firearms all over the world just like there are cars. Yes
a car is a tool just like a gun. And a car can kill just as easily as a
gun. Just add in oh, lets say a teenager texting. Or for the big
one...drunk driving, which kills far more.

I would be all for having a license to carry a firearm, background check
even a metal evaluation to own one. If someone one like me who collects
firearms really wishes to engage in this hobby, is willing to do so, it would be no
issue.

Some may make it sound like Americans walk around carrying weapons all over
their persons on a daily basis. (yes I have heard persons exaggerate this way)
when in all reality, they carry only one.

Let me pose this question; What about the police who get a little trigger happy
and fill some suspect full of rounds when they really didn't need to? Or shooting
the WRONG person altogether? These are supposed to be highly trained and
reliable servants of the public trust.

Here is a good example....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 79408.html

I am not saying that guns are a solution, nor are they for everyone. As I have stated before
they are tools and in the right hands they remain such. But like any other tool, they can fall
into the wrong hands and can cause loss of life.

Let us not forget about one Bernhard Goetz, take a gander at this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

I can think of many uses for a firearm and in the right hands they can be used for
constructive purposes. But don't deny those of us the right to have them because some
idiots cannot be trusted with them.
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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Architect of light 75
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Architect of light 75 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:48 pm

Hi Howard,

Are you comparing a Somalian war lord or people in Israel or Palestine being killed to a creepy American boy killing people in a theatre ?

Are you serious ?

These people where innocent, watching a Pg-13 movie and they got shot because it is clearly too easy to get a gun in this country and you compare it to Palestine or Somalian ? Gosh this sounds so ignorant and lacking respect for those poor innocent people living in a country at war. It is not about war here, but about a family theatre Howard, please...

People using guns to hunt to eat ? How many percentage do they represent ? Gosh soon you are going to tell us that most Americans live in woods so they need guns to kill bears and hunt to eat so that is normal ??!! The few people really living in woods who need a gun to protect themselves against bears or wolfs (which is ok I guess) would say that you don't need it in the city because it doesn't have its place with so many people around you in the area. They are kind of isolated, very different and stil..

A car is used to drive and it can be dangerous but it is for a practical use first. A gun is a weapon and it was created to kill, shot, not even being close, it's a weapon for cowards, please don't compare a gun to a car. Soon people are going to say that airplane is a weapon too because you can crash it into a building so is a truck too and a bike because you can impale a person with a bike and you can also use a table and break a skull and the brain with, so a table is a weapon, come on ????!!!

This is bad faith by people who just love weapons. Just like some smokers would say "you can also die by crossing the road, it's the same as smoking"... :fp:

The Police is supposed to use it for good purpose only and some don't unfortunately. So if you add the bad cops to the silly unbalanced people owning a gun, do you realise how many death possibilities you have here ? Well you have the answer with these many shooting and heavy crime in the country.

If you get into a fight because a guy said to your girl that she's a bitch, you can punch him in the face, ignore him and move on, crash a bottle of wine and attack him with it, or kick him in the testis. You have many choices but all will have a consequence and having the possibility to own a gun can bring the situation to a very desastrous result. You can kill him, he can get your gun and kill you and your girl, he can miss you and kill somebody innocent back in the place, even a baby. Could he do that with a punch or by saying he's sorry, you forgive him and both move on ? Guys it's time to stop finding excuses because you love those things, violence is never a good answer.

You can say anything you want, it's not really going to change in this country because many are blinded because they love those "toys" so their opinion is not balanced. If one day one of their kid get killed by a gun that was too easy to reach or in a street fight or just because a kid brought it at school they "might" think about it differently but until that.. they won't change.

What a stupid world..

Good night and see you around, take care.
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Howard64
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Re: The Colorado shootings

Post by Howard64 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:38 pm

I see you totally missed my point Arch. But you are entitled to your
own opinion, just as I am with mine. Some of your comments I will not
even dignify with a comment. I can see that you are set in your views
as hard as concrete so I will not try to change those views.
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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