Your thoughts on the history of the house

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Brooke Forrester
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Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brooke Forrester » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:47 pm

I was wondering how you all feel about the stories of an Indian burial ground on the property and the John Ketchum burial on the property or if he even was a “witch”.

And do you believe the story that the ghost boy Missy talked about was really a boy who drowned?

I just wonder what people think these days about that alleged history.

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Amit Y Ville » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:15 pm

Brooke Forrester wrote:I was wondering how you all feel about the stories of an Indian burial ground on the property and the John Ketchum burial on the property or if he even was a “witch”.

And do you believe the story that the ghost boy Missy talked about was really a boy who drowned?

I just wonder what people think these days about that alleged history.
A guy being a witch is disturbing in itself tbh. Who knows whats true in the Amityville Horror case.
"Everything's sliding into place. Just ONE more sacrifice Lisa."

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DC Fan
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by DC Fan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:31 pm

Brooke Forrester wrote:I was wondering how you all feel about the stories of an Indian burial ground on the property and the John Ketchum burial on the property or if he even was a “witch”.

And do you believe the story that the ghost boy Missy talked about was really a boy who drowned?

I just wonder what people think these days about that alleged history.
I regard the history as largely irrelevant even if it were true. What happened in Salem was a witch hunt. So if there was such a person he was probably a victim of slander. I don't believe that there was an Indian burial ground in the area but even if there was, I don't think it should be any scarier than a Protestant burial ground. The presumption behind this Indian scare is that they have some power or association with supernatural forces unavailable to Europeans.

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brooke Forrester » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm

I agree that there were no real devil worshippers in Salem so I never thought it was fair that even if this John Ketchum was accused of being one, that that should have been presumed to be true.

I always thought the belief about Indian burial grounds being haunted stemmed from the way the early settlers disrespected the natives and their burial grounds.

Anyway, the reason I’m curious about what posters think about this is because it was pretty central to the haunting story.

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Brendan72
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brendan72 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:58 pm

There was an interesting article relating to John Ketcham (Ketchum) written by a past member named Lisa Marie, where she explored the possible links between the one in Salem, Massachusetts who escaped the Salem witch trials and the namesake who resided in Amityville. Unfortunately the link to this article is no longer active but still listed in the information and links section of this board index.

The aspect of Native American burials around Ocean Avenue has been explored previously on this topic from over 10 years ago:

http://www.amityvillefaq.com/truthboard ... f=1&t=1108

Part of the thread included a quote from Hans Holzer’s book ‘Murder in Amityville’ of which another member BillyCigars quoted:
BillyCigars wrote:Is it built on an Indian burial ground?

No one really knows for sure. The closest thing we have to any evidence about "Indian Burial Grounds" is a local story about an Indian Chief's bones being unearthed about 2 or 3 blocks south of the residence back in the 1920's. Here is an excerpt from an interview with Seth Purdy of The Amityville Historical Society conducted by Hans Holzer in the late 70's from his (unfinished) Documentary called, "Murder In Amityville":

Holzer: Was there ever any Indian Burial ground discovered in this general area?

Purdy: Not to my knowledge. The only story I've ever heard about any Indian being buried in that area was south of [112 Ocean Avenue] and it was reported that they had found the skeleton of an Indian Chief--indicating that was a Chief because it was in a standing position.

Holzer: Whereabout did that happen? In what area?

Purdy: On Ocean Avenue about [2 1/2 bocks] south of [112 Ocean Avenue].

Holzer: And what happened to the skeleton?

Purdy: That I don't know.

Holzer: But there is in fact a skeleton--there was in fact a skeleton at one point?

Purdy: There was, yes.
Aforementioned member LisaMarie also responded to the thread and gave an interesting insight into some researched aspects of history as it relates to Native Americans and European settlers:
LisaMarie wrote:There's a lot more to think about than just wars between the Dutch settlers and the Native people. There were also wars between tribes. The settlers brought small pox which almost wiped out the native people.

On the History's Mysteries episodes, the current Montauk chief (at that time) stated that the water tables had shifted so there very well could be people buried where there is now water.

But also, as Vampirologist points out, with all the building and plumbing - they should have found something. But it's not altogether impossible that they passed it by.

There is also a vast difference between a sacred burial ground and a mass grave. One land is blessed and held as holy. The other - not.

Wyandanch is thought to be the greatest Algonquin chief to ever live on Long Island. I used to think Holzer's carrying on was a bunch of horse nuggets until I started learning about this particular great chief. He was a Montauk but also the "Grand Chief" of the 13 Algonquin tribes inhabiting Long Island.

His name is misspelled a dozen different ways so if you go looking for info on him try many different spellings on many different search engines. A website called The Hamptons has some great info on the whole situation.

One rumor surrounding the Amityville myth is that the land was used to house the sick and insane. There may be some truth to that with the small pox epidemic. Any indian coming down with small pox was banned from both white settlements AND their own villages due to how prolific the disease was.

Wyandanch contracted small pox. He died and was buried in an unmarked grave.

I am not opposed to the idea that Holzer discovered the great chief in his research and capitalized on it. Rather than finding true paranormal phenomena on it.

For myself though, I don't think that land is either sacred ground or a mass grave. Though I do think there might be echos of suffering that happened 500 years ago.
So does this provide definitive answers or provide some insight towards the quest for answers? In the decades that have passed sadly very little has been explored or brought to light in relation to the history of the property outside of official Amityville town records. These quotes do however shed some light, at least for me, towards possibilities that whatever haunted the house/property could be linked to the areas violent past. Or it could be one cog in a very complex wheel.
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brooke Forrester » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:22 am

Thank you Brendan, I’ll have to read all that.

I was reading some of the Indian thread. I noticed people in there were saying it was Weber, Holzer and the Warrens who started the Indian story, but wasn’t it actually Anson’s book with the Shinnecock story? He also said the psychic George brought said there was a burial ground.

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Brendan72
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brendan72 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:09 am

Brooke Forrester wrote:Thank you Brendan, I’ll have to read all that.

I was reading some of the Indian thread. I noticed people in there were saying it was Weber, Holzer and the Warrens who started the Indian story, but wasn’t it actually Anson’s book with the Shinnecock story? He also said the psychic George brought said there was a burial ground.
It would have been interesting to be part of the conversations all parties had with the Amityville Historical Society, and even more what their (the Society's) take on those conversations were, though we have a good idea of what it was AFTER the fact, when the book and movie were released.

I suspect the Native American connection as far as the book and movie was concerned was just an additional aspect to make the horror movie more effective, and whether the intent was to research authenticity towards the haunting itself I find somewhat unlikely. I strongly suspect Jay Anson always wrote the book with the motivation of sales - apparently he told screenwriter Sandor Stern that it didn't really matter whether the haunting really happened which tells me that he was only interested in money.

At a guess the researchers would have learned about the incidences of small pox and isolating Native Americans afflicted with the illness where they would have most likely died and identified this as a possible cause of the haunting. There is some validity to this as we know of other cases of haunting where violence or suffering occurred can leave an imprint on an area it happened. We do not know whether it happened exactly on the same block of land as the house, if it occurred nearby or where? If elsewhere how would this affect the house and if not why did the original owners pre-DeFeo not have experiences (that we know of?).

At the end of the day we still have not considered the DeFeo murders as a cause or a chain of events going back hundreds of years with the murders as a finality ... nobody really knows how these things work. The experts do not even have a hundred percent confidence of knowing everything there is.

I think the psychic you refer to that George brought was a Dr Heffernan who claimed that the house smelled of flowers? I do not think however that Native Americans were mentioned. Can't help you out with that one, sorry.
- Brendan72

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brooke Forrester » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:26 pm

Good points.

Anson’s book says George found the burial ground/Ketchum information at the Amityville Historical Society. I think the society denies this but some people think they’re covering it up to protect the village.

The psychic was a girl named Francine, the girlfriend of George’s co-worker. She said there was a burial ground or a murder victim buried under the area of the red room.

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Brendan72
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brendan72 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:55 pm

Brooke Forrester wrote:Good points.

Anson’s book says George found the burial ground/Ketchum information at the Amityville Historical Society. I think the society denies this but some people think they’re covering it up to protect the village.

The psychic was a girl named Francine, the girlfriend of George’s co-worker. She said there was a burial ground or a murder victim buried under the area of the red room.
The only woman I think you reference may have been from the book and movie. I am not 100% sure on who this was influenced from. I cannot comment if you are referring to the book and/or movie?
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by angelina59 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:06 am

Indian Burial Ground Found on Long Island The bones have since been collected by the Suffolk County (search) medical examiner office for scientific study, and the artifacts are being held by the county parks department until it can be determined what to do with them, said Parks Commissioner Ronald Foley.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/11/02 ... sland.html

Finding this, I would not dismiss the idea of what that house is built on. To find the truth you would almost have to dig for information.

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Brendan72
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brendan72 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:20 pm

angelina59 wrote:Indian Burial Ground Found on Long Island The bones have since been collected by the Suffolk County (search) medical examiner office for scientific study, and the artifacts are being held by the county parks department until it can be determined what to do with them, said Parks Commissioner Ronald Foley.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/11/02 ... sland.html

Finding this, I would not dismiss the idea of what that house is built on. To find the truth you would almost have to dig for information.
The article mentions Native Americans have been in the area about 12,000 years. The indigenous Australians (Aborigines) can be traced back about 40,000 years.

Interesting how erosion is actually submerging some structures under water (concrete pillars?) and it was nature which has done it over time.
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by jimmysmokes » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:36 pm

angelina59 wrote:Indian Burial Ground Found on Long Island The bones have since been collected by the Suffolk County (search) medical examiner office for scientific study, and the artifacts are being held by the county parks department until it can be determined what to do with them, said Parks Commissioner Ronald Foley.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/11/02 ... sland.html

Finding this, I would not dismiss the idea of what that house is built on. To find the truth you would almost have to dig for information.
Or one could ask why the Indian "chief" & his fellow tribesmen don't mind being dug up and played around with by the Suffolk County departments?

I take it that the only credible way to "haunt" or curse is if the bones of evil tribes are buried beneath a house?
FIRE THAT THING UP!

Brooke Forrester
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Brooke Forrester » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:25 pm

Brendan72 wrote:
Brooke Forrester wrote:Good points.

Anson’s book says George found the burial ground/Ketchum information at the Amityville Historical Society. I think the society denies this but some people think they’re covering it up to protect the village.

The psychic was a girl named Francine, the girlfriend of George’s co-worker. She said there was a burial ground or a murder victim buried under the area of the red room.
The only woman I think you reference may have been from the book and movie. I am not 100% sure on who this was influenced from. I cannot comment if you are referring to the book and/or movie?
Yes, she’s in the book, and Helen Shaver’s character I think is based on her.

In the book Francine is also the one who tells George his spirits might be coming from a well, which he hadn’t told her but he had just discovered under the front porch. I guess that’s where the movie makers got the idea to make the well a “portal to hell”.

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by DC Fan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:11 pm

Brooke Forrester wrote:
Brendan72 wrote:
Brooke Forrester wrote:Good points.

Anson’s book says George found the burial ground/Ketchum information at the Amityville Historical Society. I think the society denies this but some people think they’re covering it up to protect the village.

The psychic was a girl named Francine, the girlfriend of George’s co-worker. She said there was a burial ground or a murder victim buried under the area of the red room.
The only woman I think you reference may have been from the book and movie. I am not 100% sure on who this was influenced from. I cannot comment if you are referring to the book and/or movie?
Yes, she’s in the book, and Helen Shaver’s character I think is based on her.

In the book Francine is also the one who tells George his spirits might be coming from a well, which he hadn’t told her but he had just discovered under the front porch. I guess that’s where the movie makers got the idea to make the well a “portal to hell”.
In one of his last interviews ( I think i was one of the Ghostly Talk programs ), George tells the story of an employee who years later contacted him and stated he was told to get out by a voice when he was there alone doing a land survey and determining the elevation. George said during the interview that he never before discussed the events of the house with anyone in the office. I remember thinking immediately that George had just exposed one of Jay Anson's fictions.

The well under the front porch ends up being ignored by almost everyone. Maybe because George and Kathy never talked about it?

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:18 am

DC Fan wrote:
Brooke Forrester wrote:The well under the front porch ends up being ignored by almost everyone. Maybe because George and Kathy never talked about it?
The "wells" I believe were overflow pipes from the creek. They were not talked about because they were not paranormal in any way. The only thing strange was they didn't appear on the original house plans.

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by DC Fan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:30 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:The "wells" I believe were overflow pipes from the creek. They were not talked about because they were not paranormal in any way. The only thing strange was they didn't appear on the original house plans.
The character of Francine talks specifically about a well and the George in the book found one. Francine says "they" come and go through there and it can be covered over. This is a logical screwball from Anson in my mind because it raises the question of why George didn't "clear the house" himself.

So are you saying that the overflow pipes, that George would logically have not mentioned to Anson, served as an inspiration for the well under the front porch? If so, this implies that Jay Anson was not the only one adding fictional elements to the story in order to spike it up. Are you speculating or do you know this?

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Amit Y Ville
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Amit Y Ville » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:03 pm

Is there any evidence of the wells in the basement then? Maybe the new residents could post if anyone manages to convince them to cooperate ideally on here.

It's also entirely possible the wells were concreted in after the speculation to play it down.
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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by sherbetbizarre » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:20 pm

DC Fan wrote:So are you saying that the overflow pipes, that George would logically have not mentioned to Anson, served as an inspiration for the well under the front porch? If so, this implies that Jay Anson was not the only one adding fictional elements to the story in order to spike it up. Are you speculating or do you know this?
I'm sort of half-remembering what George said years ago.

I would assume Anson DID know about these "wells", and made more of a deal out of them in the book.

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by DC Fan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:01 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:I would assume Anson DID know about these "wells", and made more of a deal out of them in the book.
I would assume that Anson DID NOT know about overflow pipes if they were not more directly connected with some event. What are overflow pipes anyway and why would they not be easily visible from the shore? This is another occasion to want those tapes and galleys that may have been permanently lost.

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by sherbetbizarre » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:09 am

I think it's possible talk of the pipes ended up on the tapes, especially if they'd checked out the house plans by then, where they don't appear - I wouldn't put it past Anson turning the mundane into something paranormal!

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Re: Your thoughts on the history of the house

Post by Tim » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:57 pm

George was very familiar with blueprints, having been a second generation land surveyor. It seems it's just one more thing that "did not make sense."
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