The Daily Smokes

General Discussion About Anything Amityville And Other Paranormal Topics
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sherbetbizarre
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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:57 am

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:59 am
He also brings up the supposed "exorcism" his parents had to have done to rid themselves of the evil.
Well, whether you believe or not it had any affect, that event did happen (in England, early 80's)
Do they appear to be under duress of any sort or look like they need an exorcism? Sorry but I've never seen them at anytime appear to be other than normal people.
They never claimed to be under attack 24/7.

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:57 am
jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:59 am
He also brings up the supposed "exorcism" his parents had to have done to rid themselves of the evil.
Well, whether you believe or not it had any affect, that event did happen (in England, early 80's)
Do they appear to be under duress of any sort or look like they need an exorcism? Sorry but I've never seen them at anytime appear to be other than normal people.
They never claimed to be under attack 24/7.
http://www.amityvillefaq.com/intiso.html

At the bottom you'll find Fr. Rays' comments on the needing of an exorcism. Plus, you can read George's comments (in 79) that they were glad it was over for them. If it was over then why the need for an exorcism in the eighties? Perhaps because Amityville II came out then and used to spice up the new claims?

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that the Lutz's had this exorcism and it removed the presence from them for good. One would think that the safest way to avoid any more exposure to opening this force back up in their lives, would be to disassociate themselves from all things Amityville after this exorcism. In other words, let's not try and tempt fate here or press our luck.

They never kept silent or stopped from pursuing attempts to profit off it, so I guess they weren't too worried about it returning? And isn't ironic that a priest basically is the one whom started up this whole thing to begin with, reciting prayers in the house, only to have another man of the cloth in England remove it with more prayers?

"How is it that Satan can cast out Satan" :shock: :fp:

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:27 pm

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 pm
They never kept silent or stopped from pursuing attempts to profit off it, so I guess they weren't too worried about it returning?
Yeah, especially during that busy period in the late 80's and the entire 90's...

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:45 am

From where or whom did the idea of Ronnie being possessed by the devil or spirits originate?

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by sherbetbizarre » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:18 pm

jimmysmokes wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:45 am
From where or whom did the idea of Ronnie being possessed by the devil or spirits originate?
Weber - after the Lutzes came to him with their story. He was in the middle of Ronnie's appeal - and remembering Ronnie said he heard a voice telling him to kill - told the press he was going to try some sort of "demonic possession" defence!

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:27 pm

Okay.

Did this theory or "claim" ever pan out as truth? And in your own opinion, did you believe Ronnie to be possessed at the time of the murders, which might be the motive for the killings?

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:12 am

jimmysmokes wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:27 pm
Did this theory or "claim" ever pan out as truth?
Well no, of course not, unless it's what you believe. Even Weber didn't go as far as the courtroom with it, so he was more likely testing out public interest in the story.

The Lutzes believed it though - they couldn't see how a "normal" person could commit such an act, unheard of at the time, but unfortunately more common in recent years - so seeing as the house shaped their thoughts (something George never went into detail with, except "I was having thoughts that were not my own", their take was whatever was in there with them, was also there pre-murders.

Personally I don't see much to support that - all Ronnie's crazy behavior after his arrest can be put down to lawyers telling him to "act insane" for a lesser sentence, and this played into Weber's hands when he hyped up his "possession" story...

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:51 pm

sherbetbizarre wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:12 am
jimmysmokes wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:27 pm
Did this theory or "claim" ever pan out as truth?
Well no, of course not, unless it's what you believe. Even Weber didn't go as far as the courtroom with it, so he was more likely testing out public interest in the story.

The Lutzes believed it though - they couldn't see how a "normal" person could commit such an act, unheard of at the time, but unfortunately more common in recent years - so seeing as the house shaped their thoughts (something George never went into detail with, except "I was having thoughts that were not my own", their take was whatever was in there with them, was also there pre-murders.

Personally I don't see much to support that - all Ronnie's crazy behavior after his arrest can be put down to lawyers telling him to "act insane" for a lesser sentence, and this played into Weber's hands when he hyped up his "possession" story...
Yeah. Ronnie later admitted that was part of the act for his defense and his "possession" was a lie.

So, Weber created this lie to help Ronnie and the Lutzes bought it and went to Weber to help him with Ronnie's appeal, and to help him get some treatment, but it wasn't true that he was possessed thus exposing there was never anything of supernatural origin residing in the house when the Defeo's lived there? Now that doesn't help much in the way of their claims does it! For example, George stated that he felt that the forces in the house weren't there when they moved in but came afterwards. That's a contradiction! Now the Defeo's were a catholic family and said rosaries (prayers) in the house for years, yet there's no record of them reporting anything of "activity" in the house. Also, they had priests in the house as we know too. So Lutzes move in on day 1 and a priest shows up to do a blessing and is attacked and yelled at and leaves house no sooner than arrives. From then on, all kinds of paranormal things start happening and Lutzes finally resort to a blessing the house themselves and a simple "Our Father" brings up voices asking them to stop?

Now, I'm expected to buy this? Years of prayers from one family and nothing (except a bum 23 year old being cutoff from money from parents and kicked out, resulting in murders), as opposed to another family moving in and a priest reciting a blessing, then an onslaught of demonic activity of forces that appeared from nowhere that eventually drove them out of the home 28 days later?

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:34 pm

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:51 pm
So, Weber created this lie to help Ronnie and the Lutzes bought it and went to Weber to help him with Ronnie's appeal, and to help him get some treatment
No, the Lutzes went to him first... Weber then decided to use Ronnie's mad episodes as a possible "possession".
but it wasn't true that he was possessed thus exposing there was never anything of supernatural origin residing in the house when the Defeo's lived there? Now that doesn't help much in the way of their claims does it!
We can't say it wasn't true. Weber never believed it, sure. But to the Lutzes there remained the possibility it was there before them.
For example, George stated that he felt that the forces in the house weren't there when they moved in but came afterwards. That's a contradiction! Now the Defeo's were a catholic family and said rosaries (prayers) in the house for years, yet there's no record of them reporting anything of "activity" in the house.
I didn't realise the paranormal world was this black and white! Of course the DeFeo house wasn't haunted in the way the Lutzes said it was, so I think you are stretching to say a simple prayer would have awaken something pre-murders.

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:54 pm

Of course I'm "stretching it"! I'd have to, to cover what we've been told and try to make sense of it.

We have no record of anything of that nature residing in the house, pre-murders. So that theory won't hold. As far as Ronnie being under possession at the time of murders, I think it's safe to say that (considering the events leading up to the killings) it was not the work of Pazuzu, but rather what we know really led to the murders. But if you have any evidence of something being there before the Lutzes, do share!

First instance of the paranormal we hear about is not when Lutzes go look at the house first time, no actually far from it that day as it's a happy house! The problems start on moving day with the arrival of Mr. Holy Man & his blessing that seems to end as soon as he starts it. Poor Danny didn't even get to speak with Fr. Ray, it was that quick, over and out. And might I throw in that Kathy told her son not to worry about it because they would see the man on Sunday? Mass, Kathy? Hmm, thought they weren't practicing at that time? And we know for a fact they didn't cross paths again until exiting the house. But the seed had been planted to start the ball rolling. And that brings me to the comment you made about the paranormal (black & white) not so?

Let me ask all inhabitants of this forum. In your guys & gals recollections of anything to do with the paranormal, which would only include what one sees from Hollywood movies & TV documentaries and books (ghost written :lol: ), what is always the key ingredient point that triggers off the activity in these stories? The main "culprit" if you will? :pray:

I'll leave this to be answered by one of the 100 or so, deaf-mutes that frequent this forum everyday but do not speak! "Ephrata" be thou opened

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by Brooke Forrester » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:29 pm

To answer your questions, seems from what I see is that what invites activity is a tragedy and/or someone trying to conjure something up.

What I never understood about the book was how they tried to blame everything but the murders for the activity. I believe they didn’t do it because they were afraid of offending the DeFeo family members and because they thought it was more exciting to add on witches, demons Indians and make the house into a sort of character, like the shark in Jaws.

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:03 pm

Brooke Forrester wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:29 pm
To answer your questions, seems from what I see is that what invites activity is a tragedy and/or someone trying to conjure something up.

What I never understood about the book was how they tried to blame everything but the murders for the activity. I believe they didn’t do it because they were afraid of offending the DeFeo family members and because they thought it was more exciting to add on witches, demons Indians and make the house into a sort of character, like the shark in Jaws.
And don't leave out spiritualism, in all it's mundane forms. Remember, it took a priest and a blessing to start the activity, that might have been there the whole time? First day no less. Impeccable timing! I do wonder if Fr. Ray never come over at all, would the Lutzes still be living there perhaps? Indeed a question no one has ever asked.

I think you bring up a good point though. With possible (ridiculous) theories, one could blame it on or keep speculating till kingdom come, like they do, instead of just settling on the truth...

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by Brooke Forrester » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:25 pm

There are some claims the priest never came, only spoke on the phone with them, but then I thought he said he was told to get out? I don’t know which version is the accepted truth.

Then we have people saying George was into the occult but he says he wasn’t but told Kaplan he met a practicing witch (Ray Buckland) and had talks with him. Did George ever verify that?

I just always thought it was a little suspicious with the wording in the book where they implicate right away that the paranormal activity/bad vibes couldn’t have come from the murders but was already there. Example, Kathy saying, “do you think it’s haunted? By what?”. Wouldn’t most people think by the people who died there brutally a year before?

Or George replying to the bartender who asked “do you think there’s something bad about the place? I mean with the murders?” And George waves his hand dismissively and says, “No, no, nothing like that. I just wondered if he (Ronald Jr) said anything before, err, that night” (about the house).

Just seems odd the Lutz’s are so sure their haunting has nothing to do with the DeFeo’s murders but was there way before that.

Like I said, in my mind, Anson did it deliberately so as not to imply to the DeFeos living relatives that their spirits weren’t at rest. More exciting to say the murders were caused by demons, witches and tortured Indians, and say them and previous tenants of the house long dead were haunting it. And less likely to offend any living relatives.

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:32 pm

Let's do a little breakdown of this so called lie detector test that was administered on June 21, 1979. Keep in mind that this came right before the release of the movie. Yeah we'll get into that.

http://www.amityvillefiles.com/wp-conte ... part_2.jpg

question #2, yes was the response given by George that they fled in terror and we're in fear for their lives. Well now, we've since learned that the Lutzes didn't actually flee the house after the levitating or being constricted to the beds or Danny & Chris's beds bouncing off the floor and ceiling! Well, Danny says they did but we'll stick with George and the test here. George claimed that after the final night of the horrific events took place, they didn't actually flee in terror that night, rather they got out of bed in the morning, went down and discussed the previous nights events over breakfast. :think: Seems they even sent the kids off to school and then left the home later that afternoon?

In my book this does not qualify as to fleeing your home in terror! Nor fearful for ones life. So the response to this question is a 100% lie. And if they had to leave because of levitating in the house, question 3 shoots that down quickly as it would seem that the forces had followed them and could attack them at any house. I'm wondering why the next question on this silly test wasn't, "Were you in fear for your lives after levitating at Kathy's mothers house"? :clap: That would seem reasonable wouldn't it to ask that being they levitated after leaving the house!

No, what you have here is an obvious Hollywood stunt to publicize the forthcoming movie a month later and the book, by that time was selling like hotcakes and the story had gained nationwide attention. These dumb questions were given to the Lutzes in advance and publicity shots were taken so they could sell it to the dumb masses in The Star magazine (tabloid trash) to keep the cash cow going and promote the stupid movie!

Lie detector test :lol: absolutely ridiculous

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by devilbustedinct » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:05 pm

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:32 pm
Let's do a little breakdown of this so called lie detector test that was administered on June 21, 1979. Keep in mind that this came right before the release of the movie. Yeah we'll get into that.

http://www.amityvillefiles.com/wp-conte ... part_2.jpg

question #2, yes was the response given by George that they fled in terror and we're in fear for their lives. Well now, we've since learned that the Lutzes didn't actually flee the house after the levitating or being constricted to the beds or Danny & Chris's beds bouncing off the floor and ceiling! Well, Danny says they did but we'll stick with George and the test here. George claimed that after the final night of the horrific events took place, they didn't actually flee in terror that night, rather they got out of bed in the morning, went down and discussed the previous nights events over breakfast. :think: Seems they even sent the kids off to school and then left the home later that afternoon?

In my book this does not qualify as to fleeing your home in terror! Nor fearful for ones life. So the response to this question is a 100% lie. And if they had to leave because of levitating in the house, question 3 shoots that down quickly as it would seem that the forces had followed them and could attack them at any house. I'm wondering why the next question on this silly test wasn't, "Were you in fear for your lives after levitating at Kathy's mothers house"? :clap: That would seem reasonable wouldn't it to ask that being they levitated after leaving the house!

No, what you have here is an obvious Hollywood stunt to publicize the forthcoming movie a month later and the book, by that time was selling like hotcakes and the story had gained nationwide attention. These dumb questions were given to the Lutzes in advance and publicity shots were taken so they could sell it to the dumb masses in The Star magazine (tabloid trash) to keep the cash cow going and promote the stupid movie!

Lie detector test :lol: absolutely ridiculous
I’ve also wondered the same things about thIs particular lie detector test. Of course we all know they aren’t exactly reliable, nor is anything obtained from them admissible in court. There’s a lot a lie detector test can tell you, and a lot that it can’t. They can be beaten, fooled, and/or misunderstood. In fact, a long running TV show, Steve Wilkos (who scooped up the leftover BS from the ridiculous, but entertaining “Jerry Springer” show) bases the entire outcome of many of his shows on the results of a lie detector test, as if it’s results are absolute truth and Gospel. Complaints of the test being administered numerous times, often after lack of sleep and/or under stressful conditions, doesn't help
their credibility or trusting the accuracy of these tests and their results.

I’ve wondered about this very contradiction. It doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding. Was this test given at a point where George and Kathy should be fleeing for their lives (Based on crazy sh*t happening that would have any normal people heading for the hills)?

Any input, however redundant, would be appreciated.

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by Brendan72 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:35 pm

It is interesting how they both passed the test run by the two most respected experts at the time, one being Chris Gugas. The caveats for the Lutz's participating in these tests was it be conducted by the best in the profession at that time.

Does this mean the test itself is 100% reliable - is anything reliable to such a high percentile? if you asked Chris Gugas this exact question framed in this way, I am not sure if he would answer definitively. But then again I am not him and do not know if he is still alive to ask.

If you also watched a number of true crime shows a common approach for law enforcement is to give suspects lie detector tests. They are not admissible in court, but they are still used by law enforcement - whether by all or some I do not know or can comment. But if they are used a psychological tool against suspects - if they refused they would be elevated on the suspect list whereas if they agreed they would either be ruled out. Or if they were a sociopath they could believe they would beat it flying colours.

The lie detector test is a huge grey area in terms of reliability. But the polygraph I believe is the first stage of such technology as I believe they would be able to refine the process and get more reliable results - that being said I do not know for sure if even that would be an exact science.
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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by sherbetbizarre » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:02 pm

jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:32 pm
In my book this does not qualify as to fleeing your home in terror!
I think you're reading too much into it. The word "fled" is used because they never went back, although yeah, they didn't flee like in the movie.

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Re: The Daily Smokes

Post by jimmysmokes » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:20 pm

devilbustedinct wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:05 pm
jimmysmokes wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:32 pm
Let's do a little breakdown of this so called lie detector test that was administered on June 21, 1979. Keep in mind that this came right before the release of the movie. Yeah we'll get into that.

http://www.amityvillefiles.com/wp-conte ... part_2.jpg

question #2, yes was the response given by George that they fled in terror and we're in fear for their lives. Well now, we've since learned that the Lutzes didn't actually flee the house after the levitating or being constricted to the beds or Danny & Chris's beds bouncing off the floor and ceiling! Well, Danny says they did but we'll stick with George and the test here. George claimed that after the final night of the horrific events took place, they didn't actually flee in terror that night, rather they got out of bed in the morning, went down and discussed the previous nights events over breakfast. :think: Seems they even sent the kids off to school and then left the home later that afternoon?

In my book this does not qualify as to fleeing your home in terror! Nor fearful for ones life. So the response to this question is a 100% lie. And if they had to leave because of levitating in the house, question 3 shoots that down quickly as it would seem that the forces had followed them and could attack them at any house. I'm wondering why the next question on this silly test wasn't, "Were you in fear for your lives after levitating at Kathy's mothers house"? :clap: That would seem reasonable wouldn't it to ask that being they levitated after leaving the house!

No, what you have here is an obvious Hollywood stunt to publicize the forthcoming movie a month later and the book, by that time was selling like hotcakes and the story had gained nationwide attention. These dumb questions were given to the Lutzes in advance and publicity shots were taken so they could sell it to the dumb masses in The Star magazine (tabloid trash) to keep the cash cow going and promote the stupid movie!

Lie detector test :lol: absolutely ridiculous
I’ve also wondered the same things about thIs particular lie detector test. Of course we all know they aren’t exactly reliable, nor is anything obtained from them admissible in court. There’s a lot a lie detector test can tell you, and a lot that it can’t. They can be beaten, fooled, and/or misunderstood. In fact, a long running TV show, Steve Wilkos (who scooped up the leftover BS from the ridiculous, but entertaining “Jerry Springer” show) bases the entire outcome of many of his shows on the results of a lie detector test, as if it’s results are absolute truth and Gospel. Complaints of the test being administered numerous times, often after lack of sleep and/or under stressful conditions, doesn't help
their credibility or trusting the accuracy of these tests and their results.

I’ve wondered about this very contradiction. It doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding. Was this test given at a point where George and Kathy should be fleeing for their lives (Based on crazy sh*t happening that would have any normal people heading for the hills)?

Any input, however redundant, would be appreciated.
I'm not sure what you're getting at? They didn't flee in terror because there was nothing to flee from. Not to mention that thing followed them (they claim) to other homes so the test questions are pointless! Besides, it wouldn't do for them to move back into the house would it? It would kind of ruin the whole story so what better way to milk it by moving out and having "it" follow you for more terror! Please make note of the timing of the test as to the release of the movie. What you have here is a Hollywood Psyop!!

They sent their kids off to school the next morning (seemingly unfazed by the prior nights events) as if nothing had happened? Then sometime during the day, we're led to believe that George & Kathy thought it best to move out, (flee), if you will? Imagine Danny & Chris going off to school and at their age being able to keep silent about what had occurred overnight at their house! "WELL DON'T TELL ANYONE AT SCHOOL, CHILDREN", WE'LL FIGURE THIS WHOLE THING OUT LATER". :lol: Tell you what, let's get into that a bit.

George once stated that he was worried that the forces might try and keep the van from starting up when they decided to leave for good. Okay, let's try and use common sense here (something that the Lutzes seem to lack), suppose this theory played out. Would it have dawned upon George or the others that "hey the van won't start", let's go next door and call someone to come get us? Or, (resorting to drastic measures) let's tough it out and make the difficult journey down Ocean Avenue (a few blocks) to the local strip mall and call a family member or friend? :fp:

So, :lol: the fleeing in terror option doesn't work considering they didn't really flee in terror. But what the hell, let's say (for argument) that they did. Well, they still levitated outside the house and claimed other phenomenon, so what exactly did they flee from?

Or flee to, I should say? BINGO

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