Mind, Night 1
(March 31, 2005)
Hosts: Dr. Ed Craft and Tamara Thorne
ED CRAFT: Alright, hello, folks, and welcome
to Magick Mind Radio. Of course, I'm your host, Dr. Ed
Craft, and tonight we have with us my regular Thursday night co-host,
author Tamara Thorne. Tamara, how are you tonight?
TAMARA THORNE: I'm great, how are you?
ED CRAFT: Doing fine. It's great to have you
TAMARA THORNE: Oh, I'm glad to be here.
ED CRAFT: We've got a great show in store for
you folks out there tonight. Tamara is well aware of what's going
on tonight and I think she's just as enthusiastic about it as
TAMARA THORNE: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
ED CRAFT: [laughs] Of course we are live here
with you tonight on the IBC Radio Network and I want to thank
you all for being with us and encourage ya'll so I'm going to
mention this right here and right now to stick around right after
our show is APSR Radio with Dr. Jimmy Lowery followed of course
by the Lou Gentile Show so you guys be sure and stick around
we've got about a 6 hour block of paranormal talk radio for
you. And tonight's guest, of course, is George Lutz.
That's right, folks, you heard it here: George Lutz. Of course
anybody who has ever ever read the book or seen the original
movie is the actual individual who lived in the Amityville
house. And, of course, the newest movie is coming out tonight
and there's a lot of controversy over the original much less what
is now coming out. And we actually have the individual who lived
it and told the story, here with us tonight to talk more about
it, of course, he's going to be discussing a little bit about
the horrifying events that occurred to him and the family during
those 28 days that they actually spent in the Amityville house
we'll be touching on that. And, of course, we're going to be
discussing a lot of the information as far as truths and falsehoods
and things of that nature and its one of those things where
a lot of people have claimed at this point that the entire event
was a hoax.
The question here we're trying to answer tonight of course: was
it or wasn't it? And I think after you walk away from tonight's
conversation, you are going to have a different outlook on things.
So, without further ado, how are you doing tonight, George?
GEORGE LUTZ: Fine. Thank you, Ed, how are you?
ED CRAFT: Doing great. Welcome to the show.
GEORGE LUTZ: I'm glad to be here.
ED CRAFT: Well we're glad to have you. You know,
I'd ask you to give you a brief history, but I think everyone
on the planet, at this point, is pretty much familiar with the
Amityville house. Basically, just in a nutshell, you want to tell
us you know, kind of what led up to the events that occurred
in the house from the point that you guys actually purchased the
house until 28 days later? Just a brief run-through.
We Kathy and I were combing households, we each owned a house
on Long Island this is back now in 1975 and we sold those
two homes and purchased the Amityville house after we had looked
at, oh, somewheres around fifty homes by then. We'd actually try
to go to contract with a house about a month before this in Lindenhurst,
and when that deal fell through, we answered an ad, went down
and saw this house, and it was perfect. It didn't need repairs
like so many of the other homes that we had seen and Kathy fell
in love with it as soon as she walked in.
The realtor that showed it to us was actually showing us other
homes and hadn't expected that we would seriously be interested
in this home. One of things she did tell us was that the murders
of an entire family, six members of the Defeo family, had occurred
there a year before. And she asked us if that would make any difference
ED CRAFT: So you were aware of that fact before
you purchased the house?
GEORGE LUTZ: I'm sorry, I can hardly hear you.
ED CRAFT: You were aware of that fact before
you actually purchased the house?
GEORGE LUTZ: Oh, sure, before we actually toured
it before we actually walked in, she told us. She said, I don't
know whether I should tell you this now or after you've seen it.
But she was kind enough to tell us before we went in and we went
in with that knowledge.
TAMARA THORNE: Its law now pretty much everywhere
you have to tell if there's something like that but back then,
it wasn't, was it?
GEORGE LUTZ: No, I think that it I don't know
whether this is really what happened but I think this was part
of the law changing.
TAMARA THORNE: Ah.
TAMARA THORNE: That makes sense.
It was not law then it wasn't even considered [he laughs] something
that mattered. And now certainly it is. In any case, we saw the
house, we fell in love with it, we asked the children if it would
bother them to live there they were with us at the time. We
spoke with her at length some length at least about the price
and the terms. We understood that it was in an estate sale it
was in the estate and we went home and talked about it some
TAMARA THORNE: Is an estate sale why it was cheaper
than normal for a house that big?
The house should have I believe at one point it was on the market
for a hundred or the asking price may have been ninety or a
hundred thousand dollars. It was probably realistically worth
a hundred and ten.
TAMARA THORNE: Which was a huge amount.
GEORGE LUTZ: It's a large amount of money back
then, in '75.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
Now it doesn't relate but at the time the difference between a
hundred thousand dollar house and a hundred ten thousand dollar
house would make a real difference in anyone's budget at that
point or most people's budgets. The, uh whatever it was that
the house was for sale for and, I'm sorry, that it just escapes
me today what that was but I believe it was ninety thousand and
we made an offer eventually of eighty and they took it. We applied
for a mortgage at a bank the first bank we applied for the mortgage
at, we got commitment for sixty-thousand dollars. We put down
at the closing the day we moved in was the day we closed on
the house we put twenty thousand dollars cash down and an additional
four thousand cash and we purchased some furniture from the Defeo
family their dining room set for example and some bedroom furniture,
none of the mattresses or anything like that and we had, there
was a, for some reason, they filled the oil tank which I still
remember today was somewheres around an additional thousand dollars.
So it was about twenty-four thousand dollars out of pocket that
day, and moved in.
One of the things that a friend of mine had cautioned me about
was that I had to get the house blessed because of the house that
it was, when I told him what house we were buying the Defeo
house and so, he made me promise to get the house blessed by
a Catholic priest. I was Methodist so this was not something I
even understood that you did. Kathy was Catholic. I asked her
about it, she said yes. The only priest that we knew was one that
I had met earlier that year or probably the year before, I'm
sorry that'd be Fr. Ray, Father Pecoraro he was an Ecclesiastical
judge a canon lawyer for the diocese there in Rodfield Center,
in National County.
And I called him and asked him if he would come and bless the
house, and he said sure. And so he showed up shortly after we
arrived there with trucks and friends and moving vans and whatever
to move in and he went about blessing the house. When he got done,
he asked us what we were going to use one particular bedroom for
on the second floor and we told him that it was going to be a
sewing room and he said, "Oh, good, I felt something in there.
I was uncomfortable in there and I really wish you wouldn't use
it as a bedroom." We thought it was kind of a strange thing for
him to say but, since we weren't going to use it as a bedroom,
it wasn't really alarming it was just strange.
TAMARA THORNE: Have you even thought about, you
know, the fact that the murders were there had you even joked
GEORGE LUTZ: Tamara, could you say that again,
TAMARA THORNE: Had you since you knew that
there were murders before you moved in, did you even joke about
ghosts or anything like that? Being in the house? Had it even
occurred to you?
ED CRAFT: That's a good question, George, did
GEORGE LUTZ: I don't think we ever joked about
that. I don't think we ever found that to be funny, and I really
think we considered ourselves real well-formed skeptics.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
GEORGE LUTZ: There's a line in the first movie
that was not our own but its one that Jim Brolin said that
I've always agreed with, in that this is how we thought then
and it goes something like "Houses don't have memories."
TAMARA THORNE: Oh.
And it just if it wasn't going to bother the kids for Kathy
and I it was fine.
TAMARA THORNE: That makes a lot of sense.
But there was a there was we asked each of the children individually
and collectively, I mean we had family meetings about this, because
this was a big purchase and there was also putting together an
offer that would work for us financially. Having the two ho
our two homes sold really put us ahead financially because this
was on the water and we would no longer have docking fees at our
boat yard, at the anchorage, for all the things that go along
with that just have a boat house and just pull the boat in and
it had its own garage.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
So, just money-wise, we were actually ahead and it was a practical
move in that sense.
TAMARA THORNE: It amazes me it wouldn't bother
kids, but they must not have been hooked on ghost stories I
would have, you know, been horrified if I was little.
It just wasn't a family issue. I believe I've thought about
it since then, of course, and I believe that even if one of them
had misgivings, and they had been able in some sense if they
had expressed those I don't recall that they did, I don't think
there was any doubt in anyone's mind that this is where we wanted
TAMARA THORNE: I think a lot of kids don't really
react that way some do, some don't.
ED CRAFT: Uh, well...
I don't think the word "ghost" ever came up with any of this,
with any of...
ED CRAFT: Well, George, how did you first find
out about this?
Ed, I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble hearing but...
ED CRAFT: Okay, I'll speak up a little its
hard when we are on the line like this how did you first realize,
okay, you've experienced some incidents in the house when was
the first time that you got someone to actually come in there
and find out what was going on? When did you make an effort to
go back and say, "Alright, we're out of the house now, let's find
out what's going on and how it can be fixed"?
We did that before we moved out. One of my tenants in the office
building that I had was someone that who was a good friend for
a number of years. She had explained to me sometime much earlier
that she had been born with what's called a caul C-A-U-L.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah...
It's a mask of skin over her face and from the time that she was
a little kid, she was always quite sensitive compared to most
people to energies and spiritual things. And she offered to come
over and visit with us and we had... One of the things we found
there, Cindy I'm sorry Kathy always referred to the house
as "charming" and in hindsight after moving out of there and moving
out of New York, that became a very applicable word. The house
put on a real facade of beauty and comfort and, even, solitude,
in a sense.
TAMARA THORNE: So it attracted you?
It was incredibly attractive. And when you think about when
you do any research of any of the articles that have been written
by the past owners they are so quick to defend the house. They
are so quick to say how much they love the house. And it's a strange
use of words sometimes with regard to this...
ED CRAFT: Well, now, that's a good question and
one I've actually received since you guys have moved out, why
has no one else reported anything in that home? Why do you think
that is, rather?
I'm not sure that is true. And there are a number of reasons for
that. One of the most vocal families to live there after us are
the people that bought it, I believe, for somewheres around sixty
thousand dollars, a year and a half or so after we abandoned it.
And, we didn't just abandon it we left the house, did not go
back, and I'll add this to this so this makes a little bit more
sense, maybe we left everything there furniture, clothing,
food, whatever. On Easter Sunday in 1976, friends of ours went
in and gathered up the food and clothing and donated it to the
Salvation Army. On Mother's Day of '76, we got on a plane and
landed in San Diego with our dog Harry and the three children,
Kathy and I. We paid the mortgage on the house through June or
so of that year we were not able to decide what to do with it
but one of the things we knew we couldn't do with it was sell
it to another family. And at that point we gave it back to the
The month prior to giving it back to the bank, an auctioneer,
who was a friend of the family went in professional auctioneer
and auctioned off the boats and tools and furniture and everything
that was there the antiques, personal records, it didn't make
any difference, it all went in the auction. And I think we netted
out of that something around $2,000 or less from that sale it
was just a fire sale, get it and, you know, get it gone.
ED CRAFT: Okay, well now, I'm gonna play Devil's
ED CRAFT: I'm gonna play Devil's advocate here...
...that's okay...[unintelligible] to answer your question, but
go ahead and do that.
ED CRAFT: I have to do this because you know
this is the list of questions I'm getting and we got such a limited
time and I'm trying to throw them out for you. Alright, if you
guys only netted two thousand from what you had in there now,
what have you made since you came open with this story and Hollywood
got involved in it? Now that's the big "what-if" I'm sure you
get asked this all the time...
No, no, that's okay. We netted from the movie, for example, I
think on a gross basis somewhere around $300,000. The author for
the book who were the producers on the movie netted about $20
million. Our deal with Anson was supposed to be 50/50 obviously
that didn't work out. That's kind of beside the point. When you
take the $300,000, you take out taxes, and you take out the lawyer's
fees, the legal fees through the years just to get to that point
to receive those royalties, my guess is that we probably had about
I should go back and explain a little bit more about the sale
of some of those belongings. It was a balance which was our
only outstanding we owned our cars and motorcycles and all that,
but we did have a balance on the boat, and I think that balance
was $14 or $16,000. So the gross amount from the sale also paid
off the boat. So what we netted was the money that the check actually
that came to us. Okay, did that make sense?
ED CRAFT: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure its just going
through a lot of people's minds who have heard the hoax theory
versus whatever "oh, this was all made up just so he can make
a buck." You see where I'm going with this? Because I know you've
been presented with it before but I think the people out there
need to hear it and hear it from you find out what's really
going on rather than just heresy.
Oh I would have the same questions if the tables were reversed
so I don't mind that at all.
TAMARA THORNE: I would like to know you know,
the story, and how you ended up having to leave all of your belongings.
How it got that bad?
Well, the problem here is that there are about four questions
in my mind that needed answering so I'm not sure where to...
ED CRAFT: Yeah, unfortunately, it comes and goes.
I think maybe in the second half of the show we got a break
here in about two minutes and take a break but when we come back,
if you don't mind, George, maybe just going down this list I've
got here and anyone out there who is listening to us on the internet
in particular can join us in the chat room and shoot their questions
right at do you mind that?
Not at all.
ED CRAFT: Give everybody the opportunity to ask
those questions and to get them out and I'll shoot them right
out there for you but there is just a whole list of things coming
up and I have some questions of my own and I'm not letting you
off until I hear them either on air or off but I want to hear
the answers. [they both laugh]
CRAFT: Alright, folks, we're back, here on Magick
Mind Radio of course my co-host tonight I'm Dr. Ed Craft
and my co-host is author Tamara Thorne and with us is our very
special guest, very pleased to have him with us tonight, is George
Lutz. Many of you are familiar with him, if not his story The
Amityville Horror he is the actual individual who lived
in the home and experienced these happenings.
George, before the break, we were talking about a number of things
and jumping from subject to subject because of all the confusion
and the overload here. I do want to point out one thing before
we get back into this and that's for all of our radio affiliates
out there tonight [off-topic talk excised] But before we do that,
George, I have one question I'd really like to get into and that's,
we've heard about what's that?
Can I interrupt you for just a moment?
ED CRAFT: Go right ahead.
There are people that will want to get through and won't be able
to and they'll be able to reach our website, amityvillehorrortruth.com
and in there they'll find a number of documents that'll help
understand this a little bit better and there is a forum in there
that has a Q&A section and there's also a chat room and there's
a normal chat if you want to call it normal every Thursday
night and I believe that starts at 7pm Pacific Time so people
can go, they can actually connect to amityvillehorrortruth.com,
they'll see a button they can click on for a forum and they can
get a lot more questions asked in there as well.
TAMARA THORNE: So great.
ED CRAFT: That's a great piece of information
for anyone who has questions that we don't get answered out here
tonight. Well, George, most everybody is familiar with the old
movie and I think its just sort of that re-birth trend that seems
to be going on now where all of the old stuff seems to be coming
back in new form. You know, just like the Charlie's Angels and
all of this stuff. It's the same story being re-told now in a
GEORGE LUTZ: You are talking about the 1979 movie.
ED CRAFT: Right. What's your involvement with
this movie? In particular, the one that is just now coming out?
One way to word this would be the only involvement at all would
be the fact that MGM sued me when I questioned their right and
content what they were doing to do a remake.
TAMARA THORNE: That makes sense that's Hollywood.
GEORGE LUTZ: I had my attorney write them a letter
asking them to please explain to us where they thought they had
the right to make this movie and what they were doing. And in
June of last year, they sued me in federal court here. And they
didn't just go and find a normal law firm, they went and found
the largest law firm they could find in the state of Nevada.
TAMARA THORNE: What did they sue you for?
It's a motion for declaratory relief asking the judge to declare
that they do have the right to make a remake and the suit continues,
of course when they sued me, the interesting thing that came
up was that there were a lot of issues that I had with MGM accounting
issues. I'll give you one small example. Normally, Kathy and I
received on a yearly basis somewheres between anywhere from
$180 to maybe 3 or $400 a year in residual payments from The
Amityville Horror, the original movie. The original deal
that was done for that movie gave us no control, no input. We
had a consulting contract that was done what we had thought
would help make that movie more accurate, but they chose not to
allow us on the set when they were making the movie or be involved
with that process.
When it came time for that movie to be released, I asked for a
screening of it and I did get to see the movie before it was ever
put into a final cut version. They had wanted me to do publicity
for the movie and as part of an agreement to do that I had them
take out agree to take out, and they actually did take out certain
things in there that I considered to be absolute beyond [unintelligible]
I guess is one way to look at it. And so when that was done, I
agreed to go out and talk about the movie. But when that contract
was done for that movie, one thing Kathy and I insisted upon and
got was the sequel rights that meant they got to make that movie
and no others.
They do have the original people that we did that contract with
did have the right to make additional remakes, but the remakes
had a definition that included the language that we put on amityvillehorrortruth.com
that's a completely separate I'm sorry, on amityvillehorror.com
that's a completely separate website from amityvillehorrortruth.com.
On amityvillehorror.com, there is an MGM section about the remake
and the language is on there and basically what is says is any
remake has to contain the same basic characters depicting the
same basic events. Its very specific language and what they have
done here now with this new movie is, our belief based on all
kinds of things, is they have made Amityville Horror remake alternate
universe. This is a completely different set of events and depictions
and characters and on and on.
So, the lawsuit continues as a result of different things that
we have learned and all kinds of things and as I was saying
about the accounting, all of a sudden on the exact same day that
they filed suit here in Las Vegas against me, they prepared and
sent a new accounting for the yearly statement for this. And all
of a sudden it went from a one-page sheet to seven-pages, all
of a sudden it included all kinds of new information and the payment
was ten times the normal amount that was going to start for, now,
twenty-five years. So something was wrong here and something is
wrong in a lot of different ways.
TAMARA THORNE: So the fact that you can actually
keep a lawsuit going you know, fight it shows you that there
is stuff going on that they are having problems with. It's a big
company, big lawyers against one person?
Yeah, basically, one person. Tamara, the interesting part of that
is we've actually lost some of this, we filed a counter-claim
against them bringing up these issues. One of the things that
happens is when you sue on a contract, then things that would
have been historically closed, you wouldn't have access to them
in some matter all of a sudden, there is a law that says, oh,
well if you're going to sue on this portion of the contract, you
get to go look at these other things and bring those up as issues
again. So we had lost some of that those things that we had
brought up but we had saved them for appeal.
This is a very serious thing to me and this is not the kind of
thing you just say, yeah, do as you wish. This is my life, this
depicts my children Kathy passed away last year and thank God
she won't see this version but when you are talking about live
people and true events, this is not something you take lightly
and I don't take it lightly so whatever I have to do, financially
or otherwise, to fight this I certainly will.
TAMARA THORNE: That's understandable. It's based
on things that have to deal with you rather than just characters.
Authors get very upset about characters being messed up in movies,
so when its you, that's quite legitimate...
ED CRAFT: Well, I think there's in the beginning
of the show, I came out and asked the question regarding the total
from the first movie and book in a vague number, as far as what
kind of income you had received from telling this story, and when
you stop and you look at this point the difference of trying to
fight this stuff income wise is, in other words, I made this off
of the first round now this is what I'm having to shell out
its sort of like Michael Jackson losing his farm because of his
stuff, you know what I'm saying? It doesn't weigh even you don't
even break even in the long run, you still come out on the short
end of the stick.
Let's not overlook the fact that the book sold a lot and there
was additional income from that. But this was never a decision
to go public this was never a decision made about money. We
didn't have a contract signed with Prentice-Hall the original
publishers until less than 30 days from the book's release date
in 1977. We left that house in January of '76 and the book was
released in September. The contracts were actually signed August
30th, 1977 that's more than a year and a half later. This was
never about money...
TAMARA THORNE: No.
You don't leave your stuff behind and think that maybe this will
work out some way financially. You never know its going to be
a movie or that its going to have off-springs that get worse 25
years later again.
ED CRAFT: Well, I'm going to, again, you know
how I tend to change shifts because I have so much going on, and
such a limited time, I'm going to shoot one at you and this is
GEORGE LUTZ: You have to speak up, please.
ED CRAFT: Alright, this is my own question
I want to know this question and have wanted to know it since
the book and the whole nine yards. Okay, the red room was depicted
originally as a gateway to hell, so-to-speak, and here we have
the book describes it as a little different and then later on
we find out its nothing more than just a little storage room under
the stairs. What was so drastic or serious about this room that
you would even mention it in your original telling of the room?
I don't think that the book was depicted anything different then
what's been found out later. I think the red room was always quite
accurately depicted in the book. Its not even, its hard to call
it a room, it's a space, and it was hidden behind a book case
and it was painted red. When you get past all of that part, Kathy
found it by accident when she was setting up the washroom downstairs.
Its under the staircase it doesn't show up on the house plans.
Harry, our black lab, backed out of there. It was the first time
I ever saw him cower away from anything. He wouldn't go near the
room. Ed Warren, when he came in to investigate the house as a
demonologist the Warrens are quite well-known especially in
New England. His wife, Lorraine, is a light-transmedium. Ed visited
the house twice. His first time there was with alone with his
wife and Laura DiDio she was a news assistant that Channel 5
WNEW, I think it was, in New York City at the time. Ed had an
attack of tachycardia there where his heart...
ED CRAFT: Okay, we'll we've got to cut away
I apologize we're a little over here. We're gonna cut away and
I'll be right back, okay?
CRAFT: Alright and we're back back from break we've
had a real interesting show tonight. Our guest tonight of course,
is George Lutz probably most well-known for his telling of 28-days
living in the Amityville House there on Long Island, New York,
I believe. George, given the limited time because we're going
to have to wrap things up here in just a minute...
We just got started...
ED CRAFT: I know, it seems like we just got on
the phone to be honest with you I mean, things are just flying
tonight. I would like to go ahead and ask you what do you think
about the actual movie that's coming out now? What's your opinion
Well, I think they sued me to shut me up and I think that they
knew damn well what they were doing that it had nothing to do
with the original book. They have continually made statements
through movie stars and their own producers that they went back
and did research and are trying to stay more truthful to the book
and you've got to ask them what universe they live in or what
things they were reading. This is when I say this is now Amityville
Horror Remake Alternative Universe, this is as about as intentional
an infliction of defamatory material as I could imagine someone
could put together.
We were not allowed to contribute to this or help make this accurate.
We were not asked to be involved in it. What these people have
done they have done using the name, to trade on the name The
Amityville Horror. They use words like "based on a true story,"
yet what they have done is based on some kind of combination of
events from the Halloween movie, The Shining movie, Poltergeist
II and Nightmare on Elm Street. I mean, they didn't even have
an original idea to make this thing.
ED CRAFT: Alright, now during break you and I
were talking this last break real quick you want to fill them
in on what we were just talking about besides that? The actually,
it slipped my mind looking at this...
The red room?
ED CRAFT: No, no, the actually, we'll have
to get back to it to be honest with you at this point any of
you guys out there that's a good point, though the red room
and all of these questions and facts about the original case and
the new case all of this stuff, all the input, and all of the
information and documents are available to anyone who wants to
look them up. And I'm going to encourage you if you really want
to get to the facts and hear both sides or the other side of
the picture as well, go to www.amityvilletruth.com
now that's amityvilletruth.com.
Also, go to www.amityvillehorror.com
Either one of those will give you a wealth of information and
the Amityville Truth site actually has a forum
in there where you can discuss things with other individuals and
you'll see a lot of the same questions asked over and over again
and you'll be able to see the responses to those as well...
One of the things we have on amityvillehorror.com
is the copies of the original, confidential so they are stamped
and that's what it says lie
detector tests that we took with Chris Gugas back in 1979
ED CRAFT: Right, that was the other thing, that
was it so the lie detector tests are there. And I want to thank
you for being with us tonight, George.
GEORGE LUTZ: Thank you.
ED CRAFT: We've got to call it a night tonight
because we're running out of time here but I want to thank you
and I want to thank all of the listeners out there for being with
us here tonight on Magick Mind Radio and of course a
very special thank-you to my wonderful co-host and an individual
I couldn't live without author Tamara Thorne. Be sure and check
her works out too, just click on her bio, we'll get you over to
her site. Be sure to tune in again tomorrow night from 5 to 6pm
eastern time. Until then, happy hunting.
Mind, Night 2
(May 12, 2005)
Co-hosts Tamara and Ginger were on bad phone connections,
which kept me from telling them apart. So lines attributed
to one co-host might be really from the other...
CRAFT: Without going into a lot of detail, I do wanna
give you a little history on our guest tonight. He's been on our
show before, and we're glad to have him back tonight. Our guest
is George Lutz. And many of you probably know his name by heart.
He is actually going to be discussing the horrifying events that
occurred to him and his family during their 28-day stay in the
infamous house in Amityville. He's also going to be discussing
some of the unusual photographic anomalies that have appeared
in photographs of the house on Ocean Avenue. Some 30 years after
the incident, itself, most people have actually come under the
impression that the haunting was actually a hoax. But really,
So George is going to be here tonight, and share some of his experiences
with him with us as well as some of this new photographic
anomalies that have come to light tonight. How are you tonight,
I'm doing fine. How are you, Ed?
ED CRAFT: Doing great. Like I said, I've got
these lovely ladies helping me out and keeping me straight, so
I think we're on a good road tonight. [laughter] Are you saying
we're all in trouble tonight, Tamara?
TAMARA THORNE: Maybe.
GINGER STEWART: She's being good, can't you tell?
TAMARA THORNE: I am.
ED CRAFT: I can tell. She's biting her tongue.
I know what she really wants to say. [laughter]
What does she really want to say?
ED CRAFT: I won't go there on the air.
GINGER STEWART: Yeah, you don't wanna go there,
TAMARA THORNE: I've been watching "Deadwood"
too much. You don't wanna go there. [laughs]
ED CRAFT: So we should have a lot of fun tonight;
but George, can you share with us just a little bit, briefly,
about some of the things that have occurred specifically to you
in the home when you were living there?
Back in 1975-1976? Is that what you mean?
ED CRAFT: Yes. Yes.
Some of the things that occurred to us, briefly... Umm... We moved
into the home thinking that this was where we were going to live
for quite a while, if not for years and years. We had no intention
of leaving the house or it didn't occur to us that there would
be anything wrong with the house in any manner be it psychically
We bought the house for $80 thousand. That was an excellent deal.
We put $20 thousand down. We got a $60 thousand mortgage. Paid
an additional $4 thousand cash at the closing. Moved-in. Had the
house blessed by a priest, who was a friend of mine. He asked
us not to use a particular bedroom that he was uncomfortable with
which was the 2nd floor sewing room. We reassured him that we
weren't going to use it as a bedroom. He didn't say any more about
that. He left. We continued to move on into the house and 28 days
later we left.
When we left, it was because, in part, certainly, of his help.
In talking with us over the phone about some of the things that
had gone on during the last almost month that we were there. It
wasn't like from the moment we moved-in there were terrible things
going on but as time went on we began to individually doubt
some of the things that we were hearing and seeing and experiencing
and smelling, even.
We had friends come over, for example, and tell us that they heard
the same footsteps, as we sat in the kitchen up overhead, and
all the children were asleep in their beds and yet you could
hear these footprints the footsteps walking around on the
floors over us.
GINGER STEWART: But the kids wouldn't hear them,
No, no. They'd be asleep.
GINGER STEWART: Yeah.
Our youngest daughter had a playmate there that we thought would
be some kind of imaginary friend. Our youngest son had had imaginary
friends when he was younger, and it wasn't an unusual idea except
that she had different messages from this person, this thing,
that she called "Jodie." And they were statements that were unusual.
They were things like "Jodie says we are always going to live
here" and Missy had questions for us like "Do angels speak?"
When we found a picture 3 years later after moving out of
a boy that was taken during one of the investigations... There
were 5 separate investigations of the house...
ED CRAFT: Now this is after you moved out?
ED CRAFT: The investigations were after you moved
Yes sir. Some of them were years later, and they've only come
to light recently.
The... Forgive me, there are so many different thoughts running
through my head at the moment, that I don't know which things
to pick and choose from to do this rather quickly.
ED CRAFT: Well you just keep going with it, and
we'll keep listening. [laughter] How's that?
By the time we left Kathy had turned into an old woman at one
point. She had levitated off the bed a few inches and slid away
from me. Even after we left the house and moved into Kathy's mom's
house, we both experienced a levitation together. And that was
a rather pleasant experience. What happened in the bedroom when
she did that was not. That was most frightening. She was actually
sliding away from me.
We were asked about this when we took lie detectors years later,
and that was certainly one of the the fact that this had happened
more than once was something that we wanted to establish at
ED CRAFT: So this actually occurred to you, or
to Kathy, in the house; but it occurred to both of you after you
had moved out already?
Yes. Yes. And that's one of those things that gets confused in
this, sometimes, when people talk about it or the, for lack of
a better expression, the so-called "experts" about this, that
weren't there and weren't involved in any of the investigations,
that weren't involved in anything. They talk about it, and its...
When we put up the website amityvillehorrortruth.com and amityvillehorror.com
on amityvillehorror.com we put up the actual lie detector tests
and the credentials of Chris Gugas, the fellow that gave the test.
ED CRAFT: Was this an independent... I'm sure
this was an independent test that you had done.
Yes. It was done... Actually the movie company asked us if we
would mind wouldn't mind doing it, and we said we'd be glad
to do it. The fact that we didn't have to pay for it was excellent.
What they wanted to do was to be able to use the tests for marketing
the first movie. And the agreement was that no matter how the
test came out, that's what they would make public.
So they eventually did some kind of an article in one of the
"National Star" or something, whatever it was and that it was
published in there.
GINGER STEWART: Now do you still have experiences
today with whatever may have followed you from the house?
Oh, I don't think of it that way at all. Today I had a very normal
day. [nervous laughter] Except for a few 15 minutes or so
we were talking before we got on the air today. [laughter]
I'll give you an example. Two weeks ago I was at a convention
called HauntCon in Dallas, Texas. Its run by some friends of ours.
And one of the fellows that we know from a haunted house attraction
in North Carolina called "Deadly Shoals" one of the owners of
that, Johnny, came up and we spent some time talking. And we were
sitting there, and we were looking at this one particular picture,
and we started finding faces in the picture. This is a picture
taken 30 years ago by Newsday. This isn't one of our own photographs
this is one that the newspaper went out after I believe this
is the day after the murders in the house in 1974.
ED CRAFT: Ah, let me go ahead, and for anyone
out there by their computer right now, if you'll click go to
our website www.magickmind.net
below George's photograph there is a link, okay, to a flash
player, but you'll have to cut and paste that link into your web
browser, and it'll take you to the flash page where this link
is at. Where this photo is.
GEORGE LUTZ: Actually, Ed, its a picture of the
house, isn't it? Not a picture of me?
ED CRAFT: Right, right, right. Well, the picture
of you the link on my site is below your photo.
Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
ED CRAFT: And it will take them to the photograph
to the link of the Flash program that we're talking, discussing
here and where this photograph comes from.
I had trouble playing that Flash program on a couple of different
computers of mine that the firewall settings were too high.
I actually had to shut the firewall off on one of them for the
Flash to play. And that may help some people that have a little
trouble with it.
ED CRAFT: Well that way you guys out there can
follow along with what George is talking about right now.
GEORGE LUTZ: So are we still back in 1975-76?
ED CRAFT: We're wherever you want to take us
[laughter] because I think this is interesting enough we all
want to just sit back and listen to this one. Everybody out there
wants to know more. What happened then, I think, there's a lot
of confusion over what happened then but, at the same time,
there's a lot of confusion over what's going on now, as well.
We have, what, 45 minutes left, maybe, to talk about all the different
things that have...
ED CRAFT: Right. That's why I'm saying, I'm gonna
let you I'm gonna let you go ahead. If you wanna talk about
this photo, 'cause I think this is interesting. I think a lot
of people would enjoy seeing what it is you're talking about,
and following along with these pictures and seeing the images
that are there.
Well Johnnie and I were looking through different images that
I have of the house. We have a picture book that we have always
wanted to put out. A picture book done from the investigation
one of the investigations done by the Warrens. This is the second
one. This is March 6, 1976. This is when a number of different
investigators came together for a whole day in the house. And
its the way we left the house. When we left we did not go back
and get our things we left our clothes and food and furniture
and personal belongings, everything there. Boats.
ED CRAFT: Now didn't didn't you guys...
This is... I'm sorry, go ahead.
ED CRAFT: Just to clear up an issue, didn't you
guys go back in and get some family pictures or something, was
about the only thing? Or did you take that out with you?
No, we didn't get the family pictures. What we did get is some
personal records. My grandfather had given me a cedar chest that
he had built. And on, this would be Easter Sunday, 1976. A couple
of friends went back into the house and got the food and the clothes
and gave those to the Salvation Army, and brought out the chest
for us with some personal items. But that's the only things that
we took from the house.
ED CRAFT: But you actually didn't you didn't
even go back in there and get these things.
No, I gave them the key.
ED CRAFT: They did it for you, in other words.
Right, and one of them was a good friend of mine, Benny Montana
who owned Nassau County Harley Davidson. He was murdered a week
later. He's the only fella that ate any food that day in the house
he was told not to. Not that you can say that that's why he
died that would be improper. But it is another event that took
place back then. He was murdered by his girlfriend.
ED CRAFT: And this is how long ago how long
after going in there and doing that did this occur? I mean what
are we talking a period of years?
When he died?
ED CRAFT: Right.
No, within two weeks.
TAMARA THORNE: Wow.
GINGER STEWART: Wow.
ED CRAFT: Wow. Yeah. Let me throw the third "wow"
in there, because that is "wow."
I don't believe that he died because he ate the food, but it is
one of...he was easily one of my all-time best friends, and he's
still missed, and to forget that he did that for me went in
there that day and got those...took care of the stuff for the
Salvation Army and got our personal things and then died as a
result, in some manner or another, two weeks later, is just not
something that I forget.
GINGER STEWART: Did you have any qualms about
giving the stuff away, you know, because it was tainted by the
No, that... This was Father Ray's suggestion he was the priest
that helped us. We didn't want the things, and we asked if it
would be okay to donate the stuff, and he said, "Absolutely, no
TAMARA THORNE: And you just wanted to be rid
of that chapter of your life.
Well, the balance of the contents of the house, we didn't decide
on until, I think it was April or May of that year. We made the
payments... We moved to California on Mother's Day of '76, and
we made the payments through, I think August July or August.
People have made statement like we had money trouble, and its
just such a misrepresentation of the whole event to say that we
somehow committed some kind of fraud by telling our own story.
And then they'll say things like we had money trouble and that's
why we got a book deal. Well we...
TAMARA THORNE: I think that a lot of people forget
that it was so traumatic for you, that you didn't even want to
go back to the house.
Well there's more than that. There was no signed contract for
any book deal until August of 1977. Five weeks, four weeks whatever
it was before the book was actually published. There was no
contract with Jay Anson, the author of the book, until August
We made the payments on that. We lived in California in a rented
house, a condo for a while and a hotel for a while, first a
motel. We made the payments on the house continually for another
6 months and then had an auctioneer go in and get of the boat
and the furniture and whatever was left in the house, and auction
that off and then we gave the house back to the bank. We couldn't
take the responsibility of selling it to someone else.
TAMARA THORNE: But what did you feel would happen
if you walked back in and, say, got your boat?
I went back once. This was with a parapsychologist by the name
of Dr Heffernan. He brought with him a young woman who was a transmedium,
and he represented to me this was on Palm Sunday of '76 he
represented to me that we would smell flowers and that we would
know that the house was "cleansed" and that the flowers would
be violets. I did not smell that, so I was incredibly distrustful
of that, and it was just one of those that's the only time that
I did go back.
TAMARA THORNE: Now what about the room under
the cellar stairs.
The red room.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
We called it "the red room" because there's no other way to describe
it. Its not really a room, its more like a small, enclosed maybe
"closet" kind of area but it was made out of cinder block, it
was all painted red. There were odors that came from there. There
was no pipe access to explain why the odors were there. The fact
that the room was painted bright red was really rather strange.
Kathy called me at work one day after we had moved in and
she was moving things around in the basement to get the washroom
area set up for herself. We had two washers and two dryers down
there, and she had loads of wash to do with 3 kids. And she was
moving things around. She found this bookcase that moved and the
room was behind it. That's the area where we took our black lab,
Harry and took him down there and he just cowered. He backed
away from it. He didn't want to go near it.
TAMARA THORNE: They know.
GINGER STEWART: Yeah, they do. They do.
What's interesting about the room is it didn't show up on the
house plans, when we got ahold of those. It wasn't part of the
as-builts of the house.
TAMARA THORNE: So there's no way to know who
built it or when.
Well actually there is some research that a friend of mine, Scottie
Gee, did. He's an incredible graphics guy that's helped-out with
doing stuff over the years; and he's done quite a bit of research.
He was one of the producers on the "History's Mysteries" documentary
that 2-hour documentary that was done about this. And he found
one of the owners had evidently had this constructed for potting
purposes, or some kind of to plant seeds or something. But it
never made sense to me that somebody would do this without any
TAMARA THORNE: The only thing that would make
a little sense is if maybe if it was a darkroom of some sorts.
Well it was in the dark.
ED CRAFT: Well guys... Hold on folks, I gotta
interrupt you. We gotta take a break right here. We're about to
run over. We'll talk some more in just a moment.
[off-topic talk excised]
CRAFT: Tamara and Ginger, before we left, you were asking
George some questions.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah, I was gonna ask him if there
was enough room in the basement room, under the stairs, for equipment
such as darkroom equipment maybe that was the reason for it.
It wouldn't have been practical. You'd have to have... For two
people to get in there, you'd have to have they'd have to be
really good friends.
TAMARA THORNE: So there wasn't enough room for
equipment, let alone another person, for it to be used for that
It wouldn't have been practical.
GINGER STEWART: My brother had a really tiny
And before we go any further, we might want to get to this picture,
only because of the time.
ED CRAFT: Yeah, yeah. Let's go ahead. Let's go
ahead and do that now, George.
GEORGE LUTZ: Okay, how do we describe getting
to this? If you run the Flash player, and its the second image
that comes up of the house.
can see this photo by clicking here
ED CRAFT: Okay, so for the listeners out there,
if you cut & paste that link that's below George's picture on
our website. Just cut it and paste it into your address bar. It
will take you to the actual Flash Player there and it'll what
you do is you run that program. And it will come up with a more
modern view of the house, and you want to stop it in the 2nd view.
GEORGE LUTZ: If you scroll down on my screen,
what I had to do was, when it comes up is that you have to scroll
down with the slider so that you get to the bottom of the picture
and you'll see that where you can pause the picture.
ED CRAFT: Okay, so everybody that's doing this
now, go ahead and set it up so that you can and get it paused
so that you can see what we're talking about here. As George goes
along and explains to us where these images are.
GEORGE LUTZ: Now this is a Newsday photograph
that's 30 years old or so. This is after the murders. I have no
way to be absolutely sure that this is the next day, but I assume
because of the crime scene tape that this is...
ED CRAFT: Shortly thereafter...
GEORGE LUTZ: Probably November 14th or 15th,
ED CRAFT: Okay, so we're going to assume that
everybody's had time to pause that now and as we go along, George
is going to explain to you what to look for in which window
pane, in which part of the house as well.
Now to get the best picture of this this is... Newsday owns
this picture. This is a copyrighted picture of theirs. I believe
you can buy the picture from Newsday.com, but I'm not absolutely
sure of that. This is a three-quarter, I guess you'd call it a
three-quarter front and side view of the house; and as the picture
comes up in Flash, it gets brighter and brighter, clearer and
clearer, and then all of a sudden it goes away and goes to the
next part of the Flash movie. So it may take a couple of times
of letting this play through and then coming, you know you can
right-click and rewind start it over and you can start if from
the beginning again, and then you'll see that you can get the
best resolution of this by waiting for it to get lighter as it
does for the last moment before it switches.
That'll give you the clearest picture of this particular picture.
The house is all black and white there. The crime scene tape is
on the bottom. There's a sign that says "High Hopes." And you
can see in the very bottom of the picture, there are the statues
that the DeFeos had put up, in my understanding, about a month
before the murders. And we'll go on to the 2nd floor window
this is the easiest picture to see immediately so this would
be the 2nd floor, right-hand window. This is the master bedroom
window of the property and the lower half of the window frame...
ED CRAFT: The darker the darker section of
Yes. And there is a I don't know how to describe this other
than a very good likeness of a face, peering out from there. A
rather distorted face, as you zoom in on it. And if you go in
and out if its hard to see, you can go in and out with the zoom
and see this a little bit easier. Another way to do it is, for
personal use, is you can print this picture and then use a magnifying
glass or rescan it.
ED CRAFT: Now George, I'm almost seeing two faces
in that bottom pane.
Well there is one on the right that's very large it takes up
half of the lower half of the window the right hand. And then
on the left, there, is another partial mask, it looks like.
ED CRAFT: Well now that one almost looks like
someone with their hair parted in the middle.
GEORGE LUTZ: I'm not seeing what you see now.
ED CRAFT: Its in the lower in fact its cut-off
by the railing in that lower left-hand section. It looks like
someone with their hair kind of feathered like they used to wear
it in the 60s, or I mean in the 70s, parted in the middle, but
its cut off by the rail, itself. Its in that far left-hand side
of that bottom frame or window pane, rather.
GEORGE LUTZ: Okay, that looks almost like another
head to me.
ED CRAFT: Yeah, its the top portion of a head.
The mouth is where it cuts off because of the railing.
GEORGE LUTZ: Okay.
ED CRAFT: And it looks like the hair is feathered.
GEORGE LUTZ: I hadn't I haven't seen that before.
This is the face I'm referring to or the part of the face
is on the upper left hand lower half of that window.
ED CRAFT: Yeah, the really large one.
GEORGE LUTZ: Yes. No, no I'm still in the lower
half of the window...
ED CRAFT: Right. This one's pretty large, too.
I mean its much larger than the one I was talking about.
Okay. Yes it is. Its much larger than the first one I've seen.
And then the upper half of the window has a number of faces. It
just depends on, again, your resolution and how clear this is
for your computer.
There's a very, almost square, kind of, looking face and even
part of the window sash looks like it makes the mouth and the
nose would be the [unintelligible]. And that one's easier to see,
again, by "in and out" with the zoom.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah, that makes a difference.
ED CRAFT: It almost bleeds over into the one
below it. It almost looks like they've got, there's a goatee there
or something. [laughter]
GEORGE LUTZ: Could be. And then there, in the
upper right hand of the whole, of the entire window, so that we're
at, we're in the upper half of the window, upper right hand panel
there are 3 panels across the top very top of the window.
There's another face its kind of sideways and there's a mouth
and a nose and two eyes that are easy to see. Its kind of gone
ED CRAFT: And that one that one's really large.
GEORGE LUTZ: Pardon me?
ED CRAFT: That one's really large.
Yes. It takes up most of that entire pane.
TAMARA THORNE: What do you think it all means?
Then if you look to that center, upper one, there are two faces
in that. The upper half and the lower half each have two separate
ED CRAFT: Okay, I see the one on the right.
GEORGE LUTZ: Are you in the center pane now or
ED CRAFT: Right.
GEORGE LUTZ: Okay. There's one in the top half,
and then there's one in the lower half of that same pane. The
lower-half one is more like a almost hairless.
ED CRAFT: Its much smaller, yeah.
GEORGE LUTZ: Much smaller.
ED CRAFT: Almost skull-like.
GEORGE LUTZ: Yep.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
GEORGE LUTZ: What's interesting about these is
that they are layered. They appear to be images layered on top
of images, almost like so many different trying to look out the
window so many different... whatever these are...
TAMARA THORNE: Do you have any idea what they
are, or what they mean?
[laughs] These are 2-weeks old for me, so every time I look at
these, I see something new.
ED CRAFT: So this is something you're experiencing
you're checking out for the first time as well, pretty much.
In many ways, yes. This is... I mean I've looked at these before,
but I have never seen these images before.
TAMARA THORNE: Oh wow.
GEORGE LUTZ: And this is a 30 year old, 31, almost
31 year old, picture. This isn't...
ED CRAFT: Its something I'm sure you're well-familiar
with at this point. You probably looked at it a million times,
and that's what's so ironic I find ironic about it, or mysterious
about it is that you've seen these I'm sure you've seen these
photographs out there...
GEORGE LUTZ: I have not seen this...
ED CRAFT: ...but you've never, you've never noticed
any of this stuff.
GEORGE LUTZ: I have to thank Johnnie for finding
these, you know.
TAMARA THORNE: He's got a good eye.
GINGER STEWART: Yeah.
He really did. He went to a when I was down there they have
a charity event that they run and I was down there last year
and they went out one night to a cemetery and they asked me if
I wanted to go, and I said, "Of course not." [laughter] And he
took a tape recorder with him and asked some questions in the
cemetery and got some answers on the tape. And he's a scary guy.
I mean he's really, he's pretty good at some things.
If you go to the upper right-hand eye-window that would be the
next floor up third floor.
ED CRAFT: Where the attic is?
GEORGE LUTZ: Yeah.
ED CRAFT: Well, the ones everybody, I'm sure,
is familiar with on the house.
GEORGE LUTZ: Sure. Each of the larger panes on
that window each have faces that are rather easy to see they
just take a little bit of time. And then as you spend more time
with the lower one, for example, there are actually two separate
faces that I see now, but doesn't necessarily mean someone else
is seeing them. And then there are two more in the middle pane
and at least two more in the... Well, yeah, two more easily in
TAMARA THORNE: You know that top attic window
is the one that I saw one in.
GINGER STEWART: Yeah, that one is pretty easy
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
ED CRAFT: Yeah, I'm looking at that one now,
and its pretty clear.
Each of those panes. And as you go in and out, you get if you
change your focus and you let it come to you then you'll see
some, there are faces that go sideways that are made up of other
ED CRAFT: They kind of bleed in to one another
Exactly. That's what I mean about "layered." Its not like you
could I don't know how you'd begin to create these.
ED CRAFT: Okay, we guys, guess what?
TAMARA THORNE: Break time!
ED CRAFT: Yep, its that time. Its break time.
[off-topic talk excised]
CRAFT: George, you were telling us about some of the
photo the images in this photograph but there's one very interesting
one to note that is not in the window panes.
GEORGE LUTZ: Oh yeah. This is outside. This is
in the backyard. You have to... You have to actually zoom in on
the black area to the right of the house, in the backyard.
ED CRAFT: The wooded area, kind of, back there?
GEORGE LUTZ: Yes. And there is, or what appears
to be, a guy with a kind of strange hat in the white area in the
center of the black area back there. The wooded area. And as you
go in and out, you can actually see him...
ED CRAFT: Looks like he's got a hat on.
GEORGE LUTZ: Yeah, standing right there. Looks
like a tossled, a tassled hat of some kind. Strange hat.
ED CRAFT: Something like someone would have worn
during the 30s or something you know like men used to walk
around in their fedoras and things. The older ones.
Well its interesting. My webmaster found this Tim Yancey. He
emailed me about it. I hadn't seen this until this morning when
I got the email and looked.
ED CRAFT: There seem to be images all I mean,
or, well I don't know what else to call them all over the place
in this thing.
TAMARA THORNE: Yeah.
Well you know what, each of the side windows have them. Some are
much harder to see than others. The front sunroom is just replete
with them, and it is...
ED CRAFT: Now what I'm seeing in that front room,
right above that "High Hopes" sign, there looks like half a face
right, and I mean literally right above it in the center of those
two windows, on the far left hand side.
TAMARA THORNE: Oh yeah.
GEORGE LUTZ: I see that. A smile and what looks
like a smile and an eyebrow. An eye.
ED CRAFT: Yeah, it looks like half a face peering
out through it, and you know the window frame is actually blocking
half their face.
GEORGE LUTZ: Yeah.
ED CRAFT: That looks clear as a bell.
In the center window, the two left middle ones, look like people
sideways. And that actually looks like a couple in the lower part.
In the upper right one, there, there's another face. And then
the easy ones to find are the right-hand sun window sun porch
window left hand, upper half there's a face right in the middle
of that one. Its very easy to see.
ED CRAFT: Those are incredible. I mean, and these
things are some of... Now you do really have to honestly look
for some of these things.
GEORGE LUTZ: Yes you do.
ED CRAFT: But some of them, you know, when you
start looking, actually jump out at you, almost.
GEORGE LUTZ: The zoom really makes it easier
to find some of these things, and the clearer the picture, of
course, the easier it is to do.
ED CRAFT: And all you guys out there can check
this out. The archive from tonight's show, of course, will be
up on our website. Just, uh, and I'm gonna leave that link attached
to it, so that you guys can cut & paste that and go and play with
this and see what you get. But I'd like to invite all our listeners
out there to do your own little experiment here go ahead, take
a look at this, and freeze that frame with that picture. Look
around on it. Zoom in and out like George is talking about, and
let us know. Email myself, Tamara or Ginger, and let us know what
images you find in this photograph. See how many we can come up
with and where they're located. That would be, I think, very interesting.
The more the merrier on this one, I think.
GEORGE LUTZ: [laughs] That's certainly one way
to look at it.
TAMARA THORNE: Make sure you give us the locations,
GEORGE LUTZ: A little description on how to find
ED CRAFT: Well George, I gotta thank you for
being with us. We're out of time.
GEORGE LUTZ: Oh, you're welcome, Ed.
talk excised] [show ends]