Talk, Night 2
(March 6, 2005)
Hosts: Doug and Will
[The first half of the show did not feature George Lutz, and
was not transcribed.]
DOUG: So let's bring on George Lutz.
DOUG: George, welcome back to Ghostly Talk.
How are you, Doug?
DOUG: So far, so good. And I, and you do sound much
clearer, so that jet lag must have cleared up pretty much.
I'm on my second round of antibiotics, and it seems to be starting to
really make a difference.
DOUG: Oh, that's awesome. I mean, not awesome that
it had to be done in the first place, but awesome that its taking care
of it, because that's what I like to hear.
Its working, slowly but surely.
DOUG: Excellent. And one of the things that I was talking
about – you know, you heard the little intro that I just did –
was that the listeners have wanted to know about, like, things, like,
about the phenomena in the house. They want to know about the –
well, they wanna know about a whole bunch of stuff, and we can get into
that – but there is one question – one overriding question
– that I got the most of in my emails this past week.
DOUG: And I wanna tell you what that was, and I want
your reaction, because this is – actually I chuckled, but I didn't
know how to react, actually. What happened is, a couple of years ago
– and nobody could point me to the source, nobody could point
me to the source, because I emailed back and I said, "Hey, what's
your source, because I can't find anything about it on the Internet;
what's your source?" Right? Nobody did that, probably because we
ran out of time – like maybe they haven't checked their email
since I sent, you know, the question. Or maybe they really don't have
a source. But they had said something to the effect of – four
different people said this – a couple of years ago, they understood
that you recanted the events at the Amityville house. And I had not
heard that rumor, or that thing. I've not heard that. I didn't know
WILL: I had. [unintelligible]
DOUG: Oh you had? Okay. 'Cause I had not ever heard
that. I had always thought of the Amityville horror house as just truly
amazingly haunted, and perhaps Hollywood-ized up, you know, but at the
same time, I thought, "Wow," you know, "That was quite
a paranormal event, series of events going on. Brought in all these
people, you know, these amazing high-profile people to investigate it..."
That's how it was to me forever until I read my emails – my email
What – and there's a fellow in the chat room, Sean B, as a matter
of fact, ah, he had heard the recanting story as a matter of fact. Did
you, a couple of years ago, go out and say, "Oh yeah, that was
all made up," or whatever.
DOUG: I didn't think so. I hoped not, anyway.
Its an, I believe its an Internet rumor that was started by a few people
that really don't deserve even to be named.
DOUG: Ah. Okay. But nobody else knows the source, though
– at least that I could gather in a week.
Oh I'd love to see the source anytime.
DOUG: You don't need to. We don't need to give them
any credence, you know. But I have to say – oh, I mean, unless
you want to, or course.
Well no member of the family has ever done that. That's just not...
If it wasn't such a serious thing, I would probably be chuckling a bit
more, but no, that's never happened, its not going to happen.
DOUG: Well as you know, I'm sort of a third party observer,
right, who just happens to be lucky enough to be able to talk to you
on the radio. And as a third party observer, when I first saw that,
I chuckled. I did. I thought, I had never heard any of this, you know.
Why would you go on, you know, it didn't make sense to me, like why
would you say, "Oh yeah, I'll go on Ghostly Talk and talk
about The Amityville Horror even though two years ago I said
"No." I mean it doesn't, it didn't jibe with what I felt the
situation would have been. So...
Well it wouldn't jibe with, one really good example, I think, would
be the History's Mysteries. History Channel did a two hour, two segment
– so it was an hour each segment – documentary on The
Amityville Horror. And Kathy and I sat side by side for, I think
it was more than 8 hours – 82 hours – of continual questions
that were thrown at us. We answered on-camera, and we did this together
for that show. You don't see the eight hours, but they...
DOUG: Where they edit that.
Sure. Of course. And because there were so many different people on
that, on those two shows, but no. That's just never – that's not
– no, that's never happened.
DOUG: I had never heard of it until I read my emails.
[laughs] I had to chuckle.
So I'd have to wonder why even somebody would say a couple of years
ago when that was – that's the most recent, longest thing. The,
umm, other than that probably the ABC Primetime interview that I did
two years ago would also be the same thing. That was a full hour, or
whatever it was. That, there's just no – no, there's... No one's
ever recanted. Its not gonna happen.
DOUG: Right. Because this stuff did happen. And that's
the other thing people were asking about. What kind of, the most interesting
stuff – like, you know, obviously we're a bunch, a lot of us are
ghost hunters, and we're looking for paranormal activity to study, take
measurements of, record on film, you know, record on digital, record
every which way we can possibly record it, to try and understand this
stuff. Its just what we do, right? And its our hobby, its our passion.
For a couple of us – well not us here, because we're not employed
doing that, but there are a couple of people that we've talked to, that
that's what they do, even for a living.
Um, and, but what happens is they're interested in the activity. Like
the physical phenomena is what we would call it – that would happen.
Smells, which of course were, you'd attempt to portray a smell, right,
in the movie...
Actually there were two, yeah, there were two different smells. One
was the, umm, what was described at the time as kinda cheap perfume
that came and went, and was pretty noticeable around Kathy from time
to time. And the other was the, I guess you'd describe them as "sewer
smells" in the basement coming from in and around the, what became
known as the red room. That was the closet of sorts hidden behind a
Those were the two smells that come to mind today.
DOUG: Now the one about the perfume...
DOUG: Now perfume is generally a female kind of thing
– associated with females – at least in our society. Ah,
of course cologne would, you know, a stronger, male scent would be,
you know, considered a male scent. I'm wondering, that if I smell perfume
on a, in a haunted place, I don't tend to think of it as anything evil,
or thinking that that's a threatening kind of thing. I think that maybe
a way, and I've smelled things – I've smelled actually church
incense where it did not need to, or there was no opportunity for church
incense to be. And it was an overwhelming pungent smell, like they were
just walking right next to you with these church incenses burning. And
it didn't, it wasn't a threatening thing.
So were there, in your house, were there like some, perhaps some goodness
to offset all this like horrible, or, you know, like just onslaught
of bizarre things...
The first time that Kathy described this when it happened to her was
that she smelled this, and it came up, she felt, behind her. And for
quite a few moments she felt embraced by something behind her. And she
felt it was a woman. And it was more of a comforting gesture than one
to terrify. It was very confusing for her, it was very – it was
the kind of thing that she had difficulty explaining – or trying
to even tell me about. She was quite serious about this, and it happened
more than once to her. The odor, she described as – forgive the
expression – "an old lady's perfume."
DOUG: And I've heard that in several different hauntings.
So that's the kind of thing that does happen. I mean, its reported by,
you know, other people as well.
It was a strong odor. There were times you could get a whiff of it,
but it was more of an event "pointed at Kathy," I think is
the best way to put that. It wasn't something that I experienced myself,
that was something strictly pointed – it was towards Kathy. And
I think it was – my way of looking at it then, and even now, is
that it was one mother trying to communicate to another.
DOUG: I wonder if then, umm, because obviously it was
mayhem, right? It was chaos.
At times, yes. Absolutely. At times.
DOUG: And all these just bizarre unexplainable things
because, uh... And I've had bizarre, unexplainable things happen to
me. I was fortunate enough to be able to spend a week at the Holly Hotel.
Not at night, because its not a hotel, its a dining establishment now.
But we were there for a week, what, two Octobers ago?
DOUG: Yeah. And some bizarre things happened, but not
in an onslaught, you know. It wasn't like–
Where? Where was this?
DOUG: That would be in – it would be in Holly,
Michigan. It is in Holly, Michigan. Its called the Holly Hotel. It was
a hotel for a long, long time – right on the train tracks. It
was a popular and, you know, busy place at one time. Now, of course,
you know the train is of less importance, and so its a restaurant now.
And we had, we went down – they have a comedy club down in the
basement. That's where we were hanging around during this week-long
event. And it was, there was at least seven identifiable, unexplainable
things that happened to me. But it was so spread out throughout the
week. It wasn't like all at once, you know...
talk excised – Doug tells a story of people hearing phantom
sounds at the Holly Hotel]
LUTZ: What I heard there, in the
house, was – and I was the only one that heard this – was
the, what I call the marching band kind of tuning-up. It wasn't real
music – it was the noise of "a band trying to get it together,"
[that's] maybe one way to put it. Our dog Harry was by the front door
asleep, and I went down the stairs – I though a clock radio or
something had gone off – and by the time I got down there he's
still asleep, but the noise went away. And it sounded at one point,
my recollection of it today is that like they had rolled up the rug
and were moving around as well. It wasn't just the noise. But there
was nothing there.
DOUG: Wow. Yeah, that's a lot of activity. That takes
a lot of energy. Another thing we look at is the energy involved in
these kinds of things. To make noises, to make smells, to make things
move, to make apparitions – to make any of the stuff happen it
takes energy. And energy is usually hard for them to get a hold of.
But evidently there's something there, or there was something there
that was helping feed all this stuff. And that's another thing, another
question I have come up with is where do you suppose the energy came
from. I don't think we're gonna be able to answer that. That's the thing,
you know. Psychic energy is something that we still don't know that
When you heard – what's interesting is you said "a marching
Yes. And I'm looking at what we answered in the polygraph test. This
isn't stuff that I look at very often. On amitvyillehorror.com there
is a section called "documents," and in there is the, on page
2 is the section that deals with being asked about the sound, and there's
question five: "At the Amityville house did you hear what sounded
like a marching band tuning-up in the middle of the night?" And
I answered "yes." This was the polygraph given by Chris Gugas
in 1979, I think it was. You can go back and see that.
DOUG: That's... So even technology has proven that
you had, when you say that–
It was June 21, 1979 that this was given by Professional Security Consultants.
They were a polygraph and security specialists on Vine Street, North
Vine Street in Hollywood, California. Chris Googas – we put some
information about his book in there, also. He taught the FBI how to
use the polygraph.
DOUG: An expert, then. Yeah.
Oh, he was considered the number two man in the world at the time.
DOUG: And what's amazing is that they use polygraphs
even now in paranormal research, and we can see that on things like,
on shows like "Proof Positive."
I wasn't aware of that.
DOUG: And they've come out with, yeah, they've had
these cases and – none of the cases today are as upsetting as
The Amityville Horror case, right? Because, I mean, there's
a lot of, you know, pretty bad cases, and on one hand I feel sorry for
the entities that are causing this havoc and don't even know that they're
causing havoc in our realm – I don't know. But I feel sorry for
that. But people that are going through this, how can they prove it,
right? So "Proof Positive," which is a show on Sci-Fi Channel,
when they take on a case, if its only witness testimony that they can
use to verify this, they actually do undergo polygraphs. And sometimes,
sometimes it comes out where, "Oh absolutely, flat-out, everything
you answered was true," and sometimes it comes out where, you know,
"Mmm, it was kind of iffy, you know, we can't, we can't do it..."
Oh, I understand. You said something very interesting. You said you
feel sorry for the entities causing this in some way?
DOUG: Nowadays. Now with your particular case –
what you went through – I don't think like that was somebody trapped,
you know, not knowing what's going on, ah you know. I have a feeling
that a lot of things that at least I've run across personally is, you
know, people, entities that don't know that they're causing such mayhem,
or they're trying to communicate with us but its not obviously an easy
thing to do, so what they – 'cause we're out there seeking this
– we're seeking people on the other side to try and communicate
with – and through EVC's, through recordings, through digital,
through analog technology, we're using technology to try and...
talk excised – Doug tells a story of ghost in the men's
room of the Holly Hotel – supposedly a psychic said its
the ghost of a woman who "just wants to say hello,"
and can't understand why her presence scares everyone away]
(cont'd) You know, we're trying to communicate with them, and they're
trying to communicate with us, but there's just something in-between
that's causing at sometimes, at least, at least in that one case, to
be misconstrued, very very much, you know – completely opposite
of what the entity intended.
There's another possibility also there, though. One of the things that
I've learned over time is that you can have – and I do believe
we had at the time – many more than just one entity. We had a
smorgasbord of, in one sense, of types of energies and different forms
of intelligence focused in different ways.
DOUG: And that's why I'm thinking The Amityville
Horror case is of course much much different than what I've ever
My belief has always been that whatever was been causing the worst stuff,
the worst things, was – it couldn't care less about the effects.
It had absolutely no moral values like we do. It would not care at all,
except to be effective. It's goal would be to control, and it would
do that in a number of different ways; but it wouldn't – it would
never think that it had something to answer for someplace else.
What you have just told me is a story about a men's room where grown
men are running out of there absolutely frightened. And really believing
they were in the presence of evil. And being subjected to severe cold,
and a darkening of the room, which are indicators of a less-than-positive
DOUG: Oh definitely.
When you went to communicate with this, you used a woman. This phenomena
was directed at men. And the answers you got were from a, from one woman
to another. So it may very well be that you only partially found out
what was really going on there.
DOUG: And that – that's another, that's yet another,
you know, wall that's very difficult to get over in this particular
field that we've chosen to be our hobby and our passion, is that communication
is not ever guaranteed – and when it is there, its not guaranteed
to be accurate. You know. So... But it was – it did cause me –
that the thing about – the moral of that story for me, anyway...
And I don't mean to correct you. Please don't take it that way. Its
the way I kind of look at this stuff, is that...
DOUG: No. And I completely understand.
The absence of God's presence is truly confusion. The absence of some
kind of positive force, some kind of positive intent is confusion. And
confusion is created a lot of different ways. Those men were not confused
when they left. They absolutely wanted out of there. They knew that
they needed to leave.
DOUG: To the embarrassment of their, you know, wives
They couldn't care less about their reactions or anything or their family
or the public. They were gone.
DOUG: Right. That's exactly...
And that's not a – that to me doesn't strike me as an discarnate
entity that formally had a body that is focused here now trying to communicate.
That's not the same kind of phenomena that I've experienced or seen
from that perspective. And I do understand what you mean when you say
we misinterpret, because it is so easy to. We have such a definite,
limited understanding of this stuff. We have such definite ideas of
"I know for myself, that this stuff doesn't exist. Just, it can't.
I've never seen it, so how can it?"
And we have these attitudes and that confusion really wreaks havoc with
us, because when the confusion is created – when we were experiencing
this as a family in the Amityville house, and we'd find ourselves, when
we look back at it, we'd find ourselves experiencing so much time there
separately – off doing our own things as individuals – not
sitting down and sharing what's going on. We don't understand a lot
of it, and a lot of it isn't "in your face" stuff. So what
happens individually – Kathy's at home alone when she's embraced
from behind by what she perceives to be a woman. I hear the marching
band, for example. Or the cold spots that we talked about last month,
or the odors – the odors in the basement that come and go from
a place where there are no sewer pipes. The flies in the sewing room
window that just – you'd kill them and they'd come back, in the
middle of the winter, which made no sense. The priest testifying, years
later, that he heard a voice tell him to get out – a discarnate
voice – the priest that came to bless the house – and the
problems that he had in the rectory afterwards, and that some of us
experienced for years after that. I mean, the list kinda goes on and
on and on, but it doesn't mean that all of that came from one source
or one thing.
And we are so quick to – and I did this for years, please don't
think that I'm immune to this – we looked for quick, easy answers.
We looked for a way to understand and deal with this stuff. And I do
believe its a lifetime of interest and study – if you care about
it or if you really have a need to know for some reason – to begin
to get some perspectives about how some of this works.
DOUG: Well it would take that, because especially in
The Amityville Horror, what you went through, it has so many
different facets to it, that I have to agree that its gotta be from
more than one source. More than one paranormal source. Because there's
like too many things that they go through, just even in the original
movie and in the book, in the histories, in amityvillehorror.com, its
just like too many identifiable, like, "Wow, that's paranormal,
and that's paranormal, and that's paranormal." Its too much to
be all from one thing.
After we left the house and we moved into Kathy's mom's house (and we
left all our stuff in the house and we moved over there), Kathy and
I, one morning, levitated. We were actually floating around the room
talking to each other, asking each other if we believed that this was
going on. And it was pleasant. It was certainly not normal. And we were
asked about this in the polygraph test years later. This was a completely
different phenomenon than we had experienced in the house. And what
do you attribute this to? What do you, you know – I can come up
with all kinds of reasons such a thing might occur today, but at the
time I had no basis to even begin to form an opinion other than "blame
it on the house," which is...
DOUG: And of course you're like so "anti-that-house"
at this point, because it's basically evicted you, you know. It like
evicted you and you got out, and now more stuff is happening. So that
even had to add confusion.
Well you need to understand that I still considered the, that we were
going to move back in the house. That was my house – that's where
our stuff was – there was just no way we were giving it up. We
just wanted to get it fixed. So we immediately put together people that
could deal with that and do something about that. And that's a process
of learning and unlearning. Unlearning all the things that you think
you know and understand or believe are proper, or... You start to learn
how unpowerful you really are as an individual and how much help you
DOUG: Do you think the right team was put together.
That's a question actually that I had from when we were talking last
week, because I had mentioned there was a bit of synchronicity that
Hans Holzer couldn't be there, and it was the, you know, umm, it was
Ed and Lorraine. So there's a bit of synchronicity, I think, that was
at work there. Do you think it was the right team, at the right time?
That's the first time anybody has ever asked me that question. Good
DOUG: [laughs] Uh oh... [unintelligible]
I guess I've thought about this from philosophical point of view in
that, you know, all things happen for a reason, and this came together
the way it did for whatever reasons. It was the best we could do.
I don't know, even thinking back on it now, what we could have done
different to put together a more qualified team in terms of people with
credentials – or what we thought were real credentials.
DOUG: Yeah, and even today we talk about that in the
first half hour of the segment. Experts are just all over the Internet...
Aren't they ever...
DOUG: About the paranormal. But today–
Everybody's an expert about The Amityville Horror, you know.
All kinds of people later, and all kinds of people that weren't there,
that didn't experience things, themselves, personally. That they're
experts, you know. And that's always an interesting thing.
DOUG: Yeah, and that happens. That happens to everybody,
in almost every case. But what I'm wondering is, I think that the people
that you put together, the people that – and of course you were
probably in a frantic state, like, "There's gotta be someone on
the planet who can come here and fix this," right? Someone's gotta
fix this. And how do you get them? Who is it? Because its not like you
look it up in the yellow pages. So what happens is, it just seemed to
me, when we were talking last week, that it had to be some kind of synchronicity
thing that I would have to think the right people came to you at that
right time. Nowadays, and this is one thing I mentioned...
Oh I think that team was put together by the grace of God.
DOUG: Yeah. That's what I'm thinking of.
Just the... For example, there a photograph taken the day of the investigation
in March of 1976 of a very strong, real likeness of Saint Pio, who at
the time was Padre Pio. He was a Capuchin priest that had all five wounds
of Christ and openly bled for 50 years and 3 days, and he – actually
a cup of blood is what he bled every day for 50 years and 3 days. And
his likeness is there, and it shows up in a photograph that at the time
Lorraine Warren was praying to him, asking him to come there.
And Father Ray – the priest that came to bless the house for us
– helped us so much for so long afterwards. He had, in his prayers,
mentioned our "plight," if you will, to Padre Pio. So synchronicity
is a very interesting thing. Its one of those things that you don't
really understand who all is involved or gets involved or looks in on
different things at different times just because you ask them to.
And that was just one little – I mean that's just one picture
taken there – and its just one of literally hundreds of pictures
taken that day.
DOUG: So even – and what's interesting is even
though all this was going on, everything was just absolutely chaotic
and mayhem and how do you want to clean this house of whatever's going
on, and then get back there, you know, get back in it – it really
required that, I think, that team, and that, you know, that situation.
Had it happened today, you know, if that kind of thing were happening
today, for example, in modern times – and we touched on this last
time – there would be no end of people that you could call on.
You just put a post on a bulletin board on the Internet, and suddenly
you'd have 300 people at your door, "We wanna help." Whereas
then I imagine you were just calling everywhere, "Is there anything
you can do for us? Is there anything you can do for us?"
The problem with that is exploitation. There are so many people looking
to make a name off of a case, and so willing to pump up their own credentials
that don't exist, in some manner or another, and associate themselves
into something and make a name for themselves that way – that
you really are besieged with charlatans. And its a very, very difficult
process to find the people who are interested in helping you, personally;
that are interested in your well-being, and not in their own game in
That's a very difficult task to cull through that when everything else
is going on as well. There is no clearing house for this stuff. There
is no national testing for it, or licenses issued, or anything like
that, and you really have to trust your gut, and you have to trust the
people that you do trust to give you good advice. In our case we were
so fortunate to have Father Ray's influence in helping us decide who
should and should not be invited to that investigation.
Ed Warren is a demonologist. Lorraine Warren is a light transmedium.
Mary Downey is a renowned time-walker who had her own school for psychics
and her own radio show at the time. These three people, individually,
particularly, had such strong Catholic faith that was synergistic with
Father Ray. I was not a Catholic, but I could see that their faith got
them through this in different ways, that was so important to surviving
DOUG: Did you ever get to study other things that the
Warrens had done, for example? Because I imagine–
I have spent time with the Warrens. I've been in their house a number
of times. I've slept there. I've spent time in their museum. Ed walked
off and left me there for quite a while one day – just, I think,
to see my reaction to being left alone in his dark little museum with
all his terrible things.
DOUG: But you didn't know any of that stuff even existed
prior to seeking out their...
Their work? Their body of work prior to that? No. No, I had no idea
of who these people were or what they did.
DOUG: Yeah, again, I have to say something intervened
and, you know, and got Hans Holzer on to some other case, and got them
involved in your case. That's all I can think. That's all I can think.
And I have to say, I think that they were the right people. But all
the – Father Ray – I think everybody was the right person
for you at the time.
We didn't have a parish priest, he was an ecclesiastical judge for the
diocese. This wasn't a parish priest that we know – this was someone
who spoke nine languages. This was the equivalent – had the equivalent
of a law degree from Oxford. After his name was the initials STO, which
is a doctorate of cannon law. And he was a judge for that diocese.
I had met him because of being invited to the diocese as a witness for
the proceedings involving an annulment for my first marriage which lasted
about six months. And she had – my first wife – had gone
and applied for an annulment, and part of the rules is you invite the
ex-spouse. I didn't understand that at all, but he and I became –
"friendly" isn't close enough, too accurate – we became
friends, even in that short afternoon. And I certainly was willing to
spend more time with him before going to the diocese that day, I, you
know, could have cared less about spending time with a priest. He was
an extraordinary man; and yes, he was the right man to be involved in
DOUG: Yeah. Again, I think the makeup of that team
is just phenomenal. And the way it all sort of fell together –
I just... Even that seems like things were working for you behind the
scenes. Like there's nothing – again, it's gotta be frustrating,
you know, you're in this house, you love this house, you're paying for
this house, it cost a lot of money, and you're – and you want
to stay in this house, and all these whacked-out things are happening.
So you're basically evicted from this house, and you need help to get,
you know, clean it up and get back in there.
And yet – and you feel, like you had said earlier, powerless,
because we're just humans.
DOUG: Bless you.
Excuse me, I still got some cough left.
DOUG: Mmm hmm. 'Cause we're just humans. So what can
we do? Its not like we can wander through and we don't have like they
have on Sci-Fi Channel where you can hold out the palms of your hands
and blast any entities away with a light beam. It doesn't happen. It
happens on TV, but it doesn't happen in real life. And so we can only
do what, you know, we can only work through the powers that can work
for us. And I think that team that was just – I think it was put
together not by, you know, pure chance, let's just say.
I do agree.
DOUG: Yes. The interesting, ah, I wanna get back onto
the upcoming movie, because I know a lot of people are talking about
that – but you know what, let's take–
There's a movie coming out?
DOUG: [laughs] I heard. Let's take a break. Let's take
a quick break.
WILL: Just one?
DOUG: Yeah, just a very fast one, Will. Whatever the
shortest one is you have. We're gonna take that, and then we're gonna
come back and talk about that. 'Cause I know there were a lot of questions
raised, and it just blew me away what was happening to you legally now.
I mean its, oh, George its just so complicated. So let's try and get
through that, and we'll get 40 minutes or so – or 35 or 40 minutes
– of that, because I wanna try and understand this, and find out
why. I wanna discern. And I have a feeling none of us will know. You
know, its just like this is just what happens in business. But we'll
find out more from your point of view and I'll let you know what kinds
of things I've received in my email. We'll do that after this break,
so hang on to–
How long is the break?
DOUG: It'll be like 3 minutes. Is that cool, or?
I'm going to imdb.org and I'm typing in "Amityville Horror."
WILL: Well while you're doing that, I know we talked
about this during the break, George, but there was a question from all
the people in the chat room asking if you knew if Father Ray was still
alive or not.
Oh, okay Will. I personally don't know. I am not sure that what's being
said isn't – when people are being told that he is, that he has
passed away – I'm not sure that isn't to protect his privacy in
some manner if he still is alive. I really don't know.
WILL: How old was he then? Back when you guys were
doing this – back in the late 70s?
I believe he was in his mid-40s.
WILL: Oh, so he's getting pretty up there, then.
DOUG: Well my best friend, Craig, his grandmother passed
away. She was 92. So she – so people have unpredictable life spans.
WILL: Yeah. He was, he'd probably be in his mid-70s
My grandad was 94 and he died right after we moved out of the house.
WILL: Oh wow.
DOUG: Oh man, that's a long-lived family. My great
aunt was 98.
WILL: I got to see my great grandparents, and they
were all in their 90s, on my father's side.
DOUG: So its completely unpredictable. Hopefully Father
Ray is still enjoying his privacy for a change.
Wherever he is, I'm sure he's fine.
DOUG: Yes. Now what I did, was I went to – I
did something anybody on the planet can do, anybody on the planet with
Internet – they can go to imdb.org, which is the Internet Movie
Database, now owned by Amazon – and I typed-in "Amityville
Horror" in the little search, and I clicked-on "go."
And here's what I find. "The Amityville Horror" 1979. Okay?
Now that particular movie, George, I don't know what you think of it
yet, exactly – I don't have a grasp on it – but I do know
that that particular movie is one of the few that changed my life. At
the time I was, what, I was 12-years old, 13 years old.
WILL: I was born that year.
DOUG: You were born that year?
DOUG: I was 12 or 13, so of course the only –
my chance to see it was not at the movies – I would have seen
that particular movie, you know, later in, you know, like within a year,
probably, but it usually, like a sleepover kinda thing, where you're
trying to get scared and stuff like that. And so what happens is, this
particular movie, though, totally changed my life, because I was already
leaning toward being into paranormal stuff. And then there was this
movie with just absolutely everything going on in it. Of course, we
took it as Hollywood, you know.
When that movie came out, how, what did you think, George? Because you
were the one who was the subject of it.
I felt a lot of different things. I was, personally I was quite resentful
that we hadn't been consulted with about the content and making of it.
I did go out and do publicity for it under an agreement that I made
that they would delete certain things that they had put in, that hopefully
will never be seen. That was kind of a negotiation thing.
As a work, it is considered a classic, and compared to the remake that's
being done now, I guess I would have to term it quite accurate, compared
to the movie that they've just done.
DOUG: Well as a matter of fact, that's number two.
And its not accurate. And don't misunderstand, the original is not accurate
compared to the book. The book is much more accurate.
DOUG: Now you worked with the book, you know, the author
of the book, right?
Yes, we gave him cassette tapes that Kathy and I had done for self-help.
A series of about 24, 26 of them. And he had to work from them. Kathy
wasn't going to sit down and be interviewed about this at the time.
And so this was a process. And it was a very difficult task for them
to unravel what had been done just for ourselves, and put it into some
kind of timeline and make sense of it. And fortunately he did have access
to Father Ray, and he did have access to the Warrens, and he was able
to put together what he did.
DOUG: The, umm – and that was Jay?
Yes, Jay Anson.
DOUG: And what happens is, I just clicked on the one
for 2005 – The Amityville Horror, 2005. I clicked on
that one. Directed by Andrew Douglas. That's what they say. They say
Who I'm sure is a very nice man.
DOUG: Mmm Hmm. They say Jay Anson did the novel. Sandor
Stern did an earlier screenplay?
Yes, he was a dentist in California. Anson did the first screenplay
for the first movie. They rejected it and turned to Sandor Stern to
do that screenplay.
DOUG: And then they also list Scott Kosar as a screenplay
He evidently is listed as a writer on the current remake.
DOUG: Right. They say that Ryan Reynolds is portraying
Well, if they want to say that they have a depiction of George Lutz,
that's a really loose statement. From what I've learned of the content
of this movie, saying that it bears some resemblance to us, then I guess,
you know, you can say that it takes place in a house, and that there's
phenomena that takes place, and that there are three kids, and newlyweds,
and its on the water, and these people have a boat and a telephone –
but other than that, that's a real stretch to say it has any relationship
to my family or what we experienced.
DOUG: Well I don't know, George, because I read on
and it says Melissa George is the actress portraying Kathy Lutz.
DOUG: And then Philip Baker Hall is portraying Father
McNamara. We've got Jimmy Bennett portraying Michael Lutz. We have Jesse
James portraying Billy Lutz, and we have Chloe Moretz as Chelsea Lutz.
DOUG: It sounds like your family. They didn't make
it up. I'm appalled, is what I am. I'm appalled at this, because I'm
talking with George Lutz on the phone now.
Well you have to look on this as an assault on a true story. This is
an assault on my family – this movie. On the true story of it;
and of thirty years of answering questions about it. Thirty years of
never wavering from the truth about this, and...
DOUG: The polygraph tests. The History's Mysteries.
Hundreds of interviews.
DOUG: The ABC – yeah.
And not involving us. And these people went out and created a script
that is so far and away from any relation to the original book, any
relation to the original movie. They have created a whole new story.
And it is a complete work of fiction.
DOUG: How can Ryan Reynolds, Melissa George, Jimmy
Bennett, Jesse James, Chloe Moretz – how can they portray these
very real – well, the names of these people they're portraying
are very real. How can they portray these real people without having
studied with you?
What's more interesting is the statements these people make. Andrew
Douglas, the director, and Melissa George and Ryan Reynolds have made
statements about how accurate this movie is. How its going to be so
much more accurate than the original. That the original needed to be
remade. That this is going to be very accurate. They've gone "back
to the book," they say at times. Umm, I'd like to know what book
they've read. They have got me trying to kill the children and Kathy
3 or 4 times in this movie.
DOUG: [laughs] Oh my God...
They have me shooting a shotgun at them, and hitting a blender. They
have me trying to drown Kathy in the boathouse – trying to kill
her with an outboard motor prop.
WILL: That takes talent.
Running an outboard motor. They have one of the kids up on the roof
of the house. They have the kids and Kathy escaping from the house –
escaping from me – in a rainstorm, onto the roof. They have one
of the kids trying to hit me with a TV antenna pipe. [laughs] They,
I mean this just gets, this gets... I don't know how to begin to describe
to you how far they strayed, and how often and how much, and with complete
disregard for the truth of the story, or the effect that this is going
to have on the truth, on my family. This is going to create so much
confusion, and so much damage to what has been so hard-fought, and so
much a source of misery, at times, for so long. This is done with complete
disregard for the effect. And then...
DOUG: Let me add to that.
I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
DOUG: No, no – go ahead. I agree with you. I
can't believe that they're doing this. But I want to ask you, though...
Well they bring the priest in not, for example – Father Ray came
the day that we moved-in to the house to bless the house. They bring
the priest into this in the middle of the story – the middle of
the movie. And he is the priest that... He doesn't come to bless the
house. What he comes is – he ends up looking in an air duct. He
comes out as a visit to the children, because according to this movie,
their father, their birth father, their real father, died, and Kathy's
a widow. Absolutely untrue. I mean just "make it up as you go"
stuff. They can't even decide what to call him. They call him, at first
they call him Father Callaway and then they call him Father McNamara.
DOUG: Wow. Well they did – let me ask you that
just a little bit, because I think the first part of this might be actually
accurate. Its the second part that's going a little crazy. "On
November 14, 1974, police received a frantic phone call that led them
to the DeFeo residence, where they made a grizzly discovery –
six bodies. The entire DeFeo family all slaughtered with a .35 caliber
as they slept calmly in their beds. Ronald DeFeo confessed to methodically
murdering his parents and four siblings and claimed it was the voices
that told him to do it."
Now that part sounds like what we all can agree on, right? I mean that
sounds normal. Well, its not a normal thing, its scary, but... "Then
one year later on December 18, 1975, George and Kathy Lutz, along with
their three children, moved into the house, thinking it was going to
be their dream home. Especially if their dreams were nightmares."
Here's where we get into the – that sounds like market-speak to
me. "The Lutz family only lasted 28 days in their home after they
were terrorized by a demonic force that drove them away. Based on the
true story of George and Kathy Lutz, The Amityville Horror
remains one of the most horrifying," excuse me, "one of the
most horrifying haunted house stories ever told because it actually
happened." That was their...
And this is what they're saying about the new movie?
DOUG: Right, that's in the new movie.
WILL: That's the summary that was written.
DOUG: Its the summary on imdb, which is supposed to
be – you know imdb has always been, since its inception and before,
well when it was conceived – and that was way before Amazon.com
bought it – imdb was supposed to remain neutral in all cases.
DOUG: And I think it does, to the most part. And they
do allow comments.
Well that's, what you're talking about is press release stuff.
DOUG: Yeah, that's very "press release."
This movie starts off with is the – that Kathy and I and the children
living in a small house in Deer Park, New York. The correct way to have
said this is that we each had a house. We sold those homes for more
than we bought this house for. That the home we were living in was mine,
because we sold Kathy's house first. It was a five bedroom, three, you
know, basement and a two story house. It wasn't a small house, it was
just we were looking for something on the water so we didn't have to
travel to our boat – and that we didn't have to have it in a yard
of some kind, or some marina. And when we added it up just financially,
monthly, by selling the two homes and taking the boat out of the marina
and putting it in our own boathouse (which the Amityville house had)
– we were actually ahead money-wise.
DOUG: Oh yeah, that would save a lot of money, because
marinas are – we're in Great Lakes–
We were in great shape moving in there.
DOUG: I'm here in Michigan. Great Lakes state. A lot
of people I know are boat owners, and it costs a lot to have it in a
But you won't get any of that kind of information from this movie.
DOUG: [laughs] No, of course.
Instead, what you'll see is that, you'll see a scene in the basement
where I have been – "George Lutz" in that movie –
has been constructing coffins for Kathy and the children.
DOUG: What?!? Oh my – there's no way!
And loading a shotgun. You'll see a scene where I'm screaming at Kathy
to kill me.
DOUG: Yeah, you now have me speechless. The only thing
I can think of is that I'm speechless because none of this resembles
anything in the book.
No it does not.
DOUG: And it doesn't resemble anything I've seen a
lot of specials, you know, the History special and interviews with you.
I've heard interviews with you on Lou Gentile. None of that ever –
where did they come up with this?
Well we now know, you know, from this content, and from what we know
now, we now know why they did not want to involve me or my family in
the remake. This is what they intended to do. They could not have –
in my opinion, and I'm sure so many people will agree with us when they
see this – that they could not have worked harder at destroying
a true story about real people and real events. They couldn't have worked
harder to do that.
DOUG: Let me play Devil's Advocate real quick. For
me, I'm just a, you know, I'm actually sort of an average person, and
I have a job and I enjoy sometimes seeing movies. I don't see very many.
I'm not like a movie hound, and I don't collect DVDs or VCR tapes. I
just enjoy Hollywood to an extent. I love seeing Sci-Fi, is my particular
thing. But of course I'm also interested in the paranormal. I usually
don't go see horror movies. Of course, though, The Amityville Horror
is a classic. So that one I saw a long time ago, and every so often
get to see again.
But I would see this movie coming out, and I would think, "Wow,
you know, they're gonna redo it, they're gonna put in all kinds of cool
special effects, its gonna be, you know, its gonna be an interesting
story – its a remake of an absolute classic." I would be
interested in going to see this movie. And just based on press releases
and watching people on Jay Leno, or wherever they're going to send the
cast to – you know, that kind of thing – and whatever press
junkets they do, I'll hear about it and I'll get excited about it. I
would like to see this movie – The Amityville Horror
remake. I would love this movie, as just a movie-goer, as an average
Now, of course, I might not completely fit that characteristic because
I'm talking to the guy who went through the events that comprised that
story, and I'm hearing a different story. But as a movie-goer, I would
be excited about this remake. So, you know, as – when I'm at work...
Are you going to get excited that they have me murdering our family
dog, and that they've turned the family dog into a sheepdog rather than
the black lab that he was?
DOUG: I can't be excited about that, no.
DOUG: No, that I would say, "Oh, they totally
ruined..." When I left the movie, I would say, "They totally
ruined it," you know. But I would go see it.
You need to understand that Orion Pictures are the only people that
could have done this remake properly. And they have, from what I understand,
from what I have learned about this, that has not happened. And this
story could have been told accurately, and it could have been told properly,
and no one cared to do that, that I can figure out.
DOUG: Well unfortunately, I'd have to say, I would
be very, I, you know, as a person who hasn't, you know, before I talked
with you on the phone – I would have been excited – and
I still was until I talked with you – very excited about this
movie. This is – Amityville Horror is a classic. I would love
to go see this movie. The only thing is, now that I know what's actually
happening, I can't say that this movie is going to be any good. I think
its going to be a huge letdown, just exactly like "White Noise"
was. "White Noise" was a huge letdown.
This will create huge problems. Ongoing problems for years. This is
not something you just undo overnight and say, you know, "Well
here's a list of what's not right with it." That just doesn't fix
it. Millions of people will see this.
DOUG: And of course, being by a huge media conglomerate,
its going to be run worldwide probably in...
Well it went so far in that my daughter Missy had a, umm, I don't know
how to word this, a "friend" there. Jodie. Someone who told
her that she was going to live there forever, and actually followed
us out to California. We had a really, very hard time getting Jodie
to go away. And the only way to do that was having Missy demand that
it happen, and that was a very difficult event.
Jodie was a little boy. There's a picture of him appearing in the house
the day of the investigation. Now they've turned Jodie into a girl.
DOUG: Probably because Jodie is, I mean with Jodie
Foster is so famous – she's a girl, you know. You probably, when
you're sitting in...
[laughs] Any excuse will do.
DOUG: When you're locked-in, when you're locked into
a room and you're writing this, what we now know is fiction –
I don't know. They say its based on a true case. They say its based
on what really happened to you guys, but it doesn't sound like...
Saying it doesn't make it so.
DOUG: They use your names in the movie.
No way around that. Orion Pictures has the right to do that. We take
issue with the fact that MGM, as far as we're concerned, does not have
the right to do this.
DOUG: The actors and actresses who portray your family,
or the family who is remarkably similar to you, but obviously cannot
be you, but use your name – they didn't talk to you.
Oh it gets better. They have us escaping, they have us escaping from
this in the end in the boat.
DOUG: Oh! Well that's different even from the first
Oh, well yeah, that's... You wanna talk about writers locking themselves
in a room, you know...
DOUG: Do they not have a copy of the book?
That's a really good question, isn't it?
DOUG: Oh my gosh, they could have gone to the library
and gotten a copy of your book. They could have downloaded it probably
off of the Internet. Oh my gosh. Okay.
there is a section there called "the remake." And it's just
some things that we put up. And we put up that section that I talked
about last week about the – what our agreement with the definition
is of a remake – of the remake about this. And basically what
it says is "which shall depict the same characters participating
in the same or substantially the same events as shall have been depicted
in either the first theatrical motion picture or the first made-for-television
feature motion picture as the case may be." That has not happened
here. I personally consider this an assault on my family and a real
intentional breach of our agreement with these people. As you understand
the contract is passed down to different hands, but the contract still
lives – it doesn't go away. They had a right to make a remake
when we originally did the agreement with American International Pictures.
They had no sequel rights – we retained the sequel rights –
but the remake was defined as the same characters participating in the
same or substantially same events.
DOUG: Why do they think they can do this with your
story? Who owns the story of – your story of The Amityville
Horror? You own...
Who owns the story?
DOUG: Yeah, I mean Jay or you or somebody – because
like for example when...
You mean for the copyright for the original book?
DOUG: Right, that would be...
That's Kathy and myself and Jay Anson.
DOUG: How come Jay is listed on the credits and you're
He's the author. We are the copyright holders together – all three
DOUG: Ah, okay, so he's just the name on the cover.
DOUG: So he's the one that gets listed in the credits.
DOUG: Did they ask him...
He died in 1980.
DOUG: Did they ask his family? Do you know his family?
No I don't. That wouldn't make – you need to understand –
that wouldn't make any difference asking him if they could make these
changes. He had no control over that.
DOUG: Well, oh that's true. Who...
His family would have no control over that.
DOUG: Who got money? Who got money to do this remake?
Michael Bay's production company. MGM, I think, is expecting to participate
in that. Miramax Films.
DOUG: Now when private Lynch had that experience in
the war just last, you know, she'd been captured and tortured or whatever
and then rescued, and then come back here to the United States to great
celebration and stuff. She had a story, right? A patriotic, wonderful,
but horrific at the same time, story. And she's the owner of that story,
and she contracted with a ghost writer to write the book, right? And
she can contract with whomever for the movie rights and stuff like that.
DOUG: But it sounds like you have the movie rights
No, I have the sequel – you have a difference here. I have the
sequel rights. The original – the rights for the 28 days that
are depicted in the book were sold to American International Pictures.
When they sold their company to Filmways, and Filmways went bankrupt
and sold their rights to Orion Pictures – the rights to tell the
story were handed down to Orion Pictures. Orion Pictures at that point
had the right to do a remake, but not any sequel.
DOUG: Why isn't Orion Pictures doing this movie?
Well that's a really good question. That's, I guess, a legal question.
They're a subsidiary of some kind of MGM's – they're affiliated
with MGM – but they exist as a separate company. MGM bought the
film library, and so the rights for the original movie – the right
to sell the DVDs and the VHS stuff and all that – I believe that,
from what I understand, is MGM's. But the remake rights remain the property
of Orion because there has never been a transfer in writing of the copyright.
DOUG: I think, well, both companies are capable, and
have a lot of resources, you know, Orion and MGM...
Well they're affiliated.
DOUG: And they're even affiliated. Well, I imagine
a lot of Hollywood is affiliated with each another at some point. But
you've got to figure, though, I would think that – why wouldn't
they just have Orion do the movie, then they could call you up and say,
you know, "George, we wanna do this. We want to do it right. We
want it to be spectacular. We want it to be something befitting the,
umm..." Something that I would want to see. I'm Doug. I'm, you
know, a little interested in the paranormal. I'm a lot, you know. But
I'm Doug. I'm average Doug. I've got a job, I absolutely love the Amitvyille
Horror – the original one. I would love to see this remake. I
would absolutely love to see it. I'm a movie-goer, right? Why wouldn't
they do it right? Because I would love to see...
I don't have the dates in front of me. What they did was they called
me last year and they said, "We want to bring you over. We want to get
together with you. We want to talk about this. We're going to be doing
the remake," and I said, "Great, when do you want to do that,"
and they said, "well we have a scheduling problem and we'll get back
DOUG: That was it.
What they were telling, what they were telling people before that phone
call was that they couldn't get a hold of me – so I called them.
And then I called them back again, and "oh yeah, we still have a scheduling
problem and we want to bring you over." And this went on for, I think,
DOUG: Well they seem to be able to schedule all of
these people to do all these things, because its marked here as being
Well you understand the expression "shined-on."
What was happening at that point was they were writing the script and
they were supposedly waiting for that to get done before discussing
this with me – and whatever – you know, any excuse will
DOUG: Then they probably read the script and said,
"Oh, my goodness"...
Well what happened was our last conversation – my last conversation
with them went something like, "I'm really sorry that you guys keep
putting this off and that we don't seem to be getting anywhere with
this – I have some issues that I had thought we could sit down
and discuss, but I guess I'll have to take them to MGM, since they're
the ones that announced that they're doing this.
And the reaction was, "You have issues?" and I said, "Yes, I've had
them for quite a long time. I've written to you people – you just
evidently don't read your mail or whatever, but you know, we'll do what
we have to do." So we sent the letter out again, of inquiry about, you
know, "How come you guys think you can do this? Where do the rights
come from, that you can do what you're doing?" And so that was, by then
that was May or so. In June of last year they sued me.
DOUG: Out of blue? That's insane.
Well there was never a discussion. There was never anybody at MGM that
picked up the phone and said, you know, "I guess we should talk with
DOUG: So I guess because you can go ahead and –
anybody can sue anybody here in the United States for any reason. They
thought, "Okay, we're just going to totally tie it up in court, and
its gonna be an issue that's tied up in the legal system, and then we're
just gonna continue on doing what we're doing because we don't have
a restriction against doing it now."
Well what I learned later was that by then they had formed a –
at least "what I think I have learned," maybe I should word it that
way, 'cause we'll find out more of this as time goes on. They formed
a shell company to hide the copyright of the screenplay. And they filed
this under something called Long Island Properties or something like
that. And so they didn't even use a working title for the screenplay.
They didn't call it Amityville Horror or Amityville Remake or anything
like that – they just did everything they possibly could to secret
this in the content of what they were doing. And I guess they thought
they could get this done and make their money and, you know, let the
chips fall where they may.
WILL: It sounds like they tried to sue you before you
could sue them.
I never wanted to sue them. I wanted to talk with these people and figure
out a way to do this as accurately as possible.
WILL: Right. But in their mind, they were probably
thinking, "Oh my God, George is gonna sue us – we better sue him
first so, you know, it looks good in court for them.
DOUG: And that's happened. I mean that's happened in
business before. Big, big business. And this sucks because its a movie
George – and we only have three minutes left, I hate this –
but its a movie that I would like to see made. A remake that I would
Well I'll give you three examples of what they've done with movies in
Hollywood. And Hollywood is really capable of doing some great stuff,
you know. They just did "Flight of the Phoenix" – a remake –
and they did it incredibly accurately. Real true to the first one and
to the original story, and it was a great movie. And if you enjoyed
the first movie, going to see "Flight of the Phoenix" was like, kind
of like an updated version, but it was a really great movie.
They did "Stepford Wives," which was a, you know, "Stepford Wives alternate
universe" in the sense that it was completely different movie from the
first. And "Forrest Gump," if you look, if you, have you ever read the
original book "Forrest Gump"?
DOUG: No, I wish I had.
Well "Forrest Gump," the original book is a wonderful book. Its incredible.
And the movie is a completely different story, and the movie's wonderful
all on its own. But its not "Forrest Gump, the book," its "Forrest Gump
the movie." Its a completely different adaptation, real change of story
and all that. Its like, you know, going to – if you just read
the book and then went to see the movie, you'd say, "What am I looking
at?" You know, its another great movie, but...
DOUG: Its completely different. Yeah.
Yeah. So they do a number of different things. What they've done here
is they did "Amityville Horror alternate universe" – somebody's
drug dream. I have no idea what they did. I don't know how to accurately
describe this. We can search all day for ways to talk about it, but
its a shameful thing to do.
DOUG: What's your suggestion, then? You don't want
to see people go see this movie and pay their 7 to 10 dollars, obviously.
[laughs] People have to make up their own minds. All I can do is tell
them – explain to you...
DOUG: That this is fancy, or flights of fancy.
This is what's going on. Yeah. Exactly.
DOUG: Yeah. This has nothing to do with what actually
happened. Kinda sad, because, George, I would love to see The Amityville
Horror remade from the book and from your experiences, with your
input, and done in modern, you know, modern, with modern technology.
You know, done really well. Really "wow" me for that hour and a half
to two hours – whatever it takes to tell the story – and
I would love to see that. I would pay 7-10 bucks to go see that, because
that's – its something that I would love to see. This, though,
sounds like it might, umm, like it might be, not exactly what I expect,
or would have expected. And that kinda sad – it saddens me a lot
because I would have liked to have seen a, you know, modern remake of
it, done really well. But I don't know. It's, it's kind of sad. I'm
appalled that they're doing this to you. Uh, we have one minute left.
They're not – you have to understand – they're not just
doing it to me, they're doing it to everyone that has an interest in
paranormal, that has an interest in learning, that's interested in the
story, has been a follower of it for years. They're doing this to everyone.
This is, you know – its everyone that gets hurt by this. Its not
just me and my family.
DOUG: I agree. I'm appalled and shocked. And I can't
– I'm sad that this happened to you, and that it had, you know,
with, around The Amityville Horror, too, because that was,
like I said earlier, one of the things that turned me on my ear. You
know, I was young, impressionable, and that helped me, you know, guide
the rest of my life, you know. Otherwise why would I be doing a show
called "Ghostly Talk," right? It helped me get into the paranormal.
And this is just pretty sad, actually.
It'll be interesting to see what really happens. Will you come on, like
around the time that the movie starts?
I'll be glad to. I think we were talking possibly around the 17th?
DOUG: I would love to do that, because that would be
just after the premiere, right?
DOUG: So I think, you know, they would premiere like
on Friday or whatever, and then we can talk about it on Sunday, if that
works out for you. I would love to talk about it once its actually out,
then we can – well we can either nitpick, or we can just talk
about it in general – whichever comes, you know, becomes a, you
know, what happens during the conversation. But I just think that, umm,
I don't know. Its, its just scary, and I'm appalled. But I am so so
incredibly grateful that it brought us together. Because I got to talk
with George Lutz for this past hour and a half. Plus I got to talk with
you last week as well and again coming up in April. So you know things
work in mysterious ways, and I have to say I'm grateful that you came
on Ghostly Talk.
WILL: Thank you.
DOUG: Thank you very much.
Will and Doug, thank you both.
DOUG: Thank you. I so much appreciate it, George. And
keep in touch. Keep in touch.
I'll talk to you guys next month.
DOUG: And I'll talk with you next month. And that all,
of course, can be set up through Scott L, 'cause he's the telephone
master of the group. He wasn't here today because he had to go to the,
uh, he had family business...