Gentile Amity Week, Night 5
(May 31, 2002)
GENTILE: Hi, Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. You're
listening to another broadcast of The Lou Gentile Show
from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We've just finished up with four
days of incredible Amityville Horror Week. Tonight we're going
to be recapping what we talked about that was involved with what
we thought. We're going to be taking your calls all night, for
the next 2 hours. So whether you thought or think that The
Amityville Horror was a hoax or if it was real, we'd like
to hear from you. You can call into the studio, toll free, 888-777-8488,
that's toll-free, 888-777- 8488. Listening here is Kevin Mears.
He's all rearing to go. As well as Mr. John Zaffis.
JOHN ZAFFIS Hey guys. How's the Amityville Crew
LOU GENTILE: Alright, how are you doing tonight,
JOHN ZAFFIS Doing pretty good.
LOU GENTILE: It's been a long week, John.
JOHN ZAFFIS Yes it has.
LOU GENTILE: This is the 5th night we've talked
about The Amityville Horror.
JOHN ZAFFIS Yep.
KEVIN MEARS: Good to hear from you, as always,
JOHN ZAFFIS Hey, How you doing? You know the
Amityville site is up and ready to go?
KEVIN MEARS: It's nice to be able to wind down.
And you know...
[off-topic talk excised]
GENTILE: Anyway, with us on the line is, John Zaffis,
head DNA certified demonologist. [off-topic talk excised]
LOU GENTILE: Well, we've been talking for the
last for nights about The Amityville Horror. We had George
Lutz for 3 nights, we had Loraine Warren for 2 nights, we also
had Joel Martin as well as the History Channel, and it's incredible.
A lot of information, a lot of people called in with their view
on Amityville and I'm surprised, John, that nobody called in complaining
about The Amityville Horror being a hoax. You know what
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, it made me feel good, because
for umpteen years, I can't tell you how many years, you sit there
and you hear this person debunking it, that person debunking it,
and, you know, I did not work on the original case. Unfortunately,
I was too young. It wouldn't have worked out that way. But, you
know, so many people claim they've been in there, so many people
claim they have information, but yeah. Here, they have the opportunity
of a lifetime this week to voice their opinions, and we didn't
KEVIN MEARS: And to confront some of the principles...
JOHN ZAFFIS No pun intended.
LOU GENTILE: Well, you know, I think people,
where they get their information from is probably important. There
are people out there that just call it a hoax-hoax-hoax, and don't
know exactly what happened. They were never a part of it, were
never even born then in some people's cases. I think these last
couple of months have been very enlightening because we talked
to the actual people who were inside of the house, who investigated
that house, who were the first reporters on the house, who made
documentaries about the house.
JOHN ZAFFIS It was great, I mean, it's funny,
28 years later, as many years as I have been listening to this,
I was enthused, I wanted to hear it, I was very excited about
talking to some of the people first-hand. I've never met George
or talked to George before, and it was great to be able to do
that. Talk to the reporter, and to actually hear him firsthand
come out with what he experienced, some information that was never
spoken about before, not only by Joel, but by Loraine and by George,
so it was very intriguing and very interesting to hear things
that people never heard before.
LOU GENTILE: I think that's what made it pretty
KEVIN MEARS: I was a little flabbergasted to
be able to talk to people, I mean, Lorraine, George Lutz, himself.
I think it's really quite a thing for the show, and quite an opportunity.
JOHN ZAFFIS Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic week
with the information. And like I said, it was very eye-opening
and it was very interesting because those were the facts these
were the people that were there. And that's what counted.
LOU GENTILE: And then, you know, we had the History
Channel on last night, they were talking about how they researched
it and how they got the information they did by going to the town
of Amityville and how they weren't exactly welcome, but there
were certain people that were in the little village of Amityville,
if you wanna call it that, that were very hospitable and things.
A lot of what we hear from other people, namely Ric Osuna, is
just there to confuse the matter, I think, and to portray a personal
vendetta against George Lutz, basically because he was told that
his manuscript, or his galley, or whatever you want to call it,
was written like a 6th Grader. So naturally, that's going to tick
some people off or, naturally Ric. And everyone who's been involved
with it, John, says the same thing. Those two had a falling out
and naturally he went ahead and started calling everything a fake,
a hoax, and debunking everything, and went on this crusade instead
of acting like a man.
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, Lou, what I've found over the
years, and not just with Amityville, but any major cases that
have anything to do with any kind of publicity or a book or a
movie, somehow, someway, it always ends up turning into a total
disaster where people will just start arguing, there would be
disagreements, people will get to a point where they would get
aggravated with their family or someone else involved in it, and
the first thing everyone starts screaming is "hoax," and "its
fraud", "its not real", "its made up." As soon as these things
come in to play, I mean, we know what's behind it, we know what's
causing all of it, you know, and it will move forward that way.
So with a lot of the different things, you just take it with a
grain of salt as it goes by over the years, and you just get used
to it when people start debunking the cases. Like I always said,
if there's something I was on, I worked on it, I witnessed it,
I don't care if Peter, Paul and Mary came out of the woodwork
debunking it, I know what happened on the cases.
LOU GENTILE: Well, I think that's what a lot
of people are failing to realize, was that, you know, the Lutzes
were a family that like, you know, you get involved with John
or I get involved with investigators all the time. And they went
through something that they could not explain, that was in their
eyes, and in many other people's eyes, supernatural, pretenatural,
paranormal however you wanna phrase it or paraphrase it and
I think that that is where everybody loses sight that this family
actually went through something. Now whether in the beginning
because of Mr. Weber's involvement with trying to get them to
get a book deal, and things like that, you know, things happen.
And when somebody tells you, "Oh, this sounds like a book deal,
and we're gonna try and turn this into the biggest thing," and
blah blah blah, what are you supposed to do? You know, if you've
never experienced that before, you know, you act naive and stupid.
And George Lutz even mentioned the fact that he acted, you know,
he shouldn't have done what he had done in the very beginning
but he didn't know any better because of what was going on.
He never experienced a haunting before, he had no clue of what
to do, and the way this attorney was making it sound was that
this was just something that was going to pan out to make them
a lot of money, and things like that. And really, the Lutzes didn't
really make that much money off of it.
JOHN ZAFFIS Not really, Lou. After you sit back
and you weigh all the attorney fees and...
KEVIN MEARS: Lawsuits...
JOHN ZAFFIS ...the aggravation and the grief
LOU GENTILE: Sure. Yeah.
JOHN ZAFFIS That was a horrendous-type situation
that they went through. It was actually totally chaotic with the
way everything actually went with who made money and really who
didn't make money. Who ended up with paying the price, who did
the most suffering, and it was basically the Lutzes out of the
deal. I mean you stop and think about it, just what George was
saying, I mean... You know, he sold his home; Kathy sold her home;
they put the money down; that was their dream home... When all
of it was said and done, they walked away with a very few items,
and they basically had to start over from scratch. So basically
George and Kathy really didn't gain all that much out of the deal.
LOU GENTILE: And people start nitpicking the
book between the movie, and that's gonna go on for years.
JOHN ZAFFIS I think so. I don't ever really think
the controversy per se will ever really end, with somebody else
coming along and debunking something. But, as we all know, we
know what the facts are, we heard it right from the people that
LOU GENTILE: Well, John, how many times when
George was talking, and you were on the line, were you sitting
there I mean I know I was doing it but George was explaining
certain things, and it was just like, that sounds so common. You
know what I mean? And you're sitting there going mhm, I know,
and it sounds like familiar cases you've been on.
JOHN ZAFFIS Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything
that George was describing, it is basically a classic type of
what I refer to as an infestation in the beginning with the demonic.
There's no two ways about it to me. I mean, you had all the ingredients
there. I mean, you had, you know, you had deaths in the house.
There's just so much that ties-in, that, you know there's not
really any way around it. And there was no reason for them to
make it up! None! Absolutely none!
LOU GENTILE: Yep.
KEVIN MEARS: Yeah, and the reasons that have
been given are so silly. I mean, its like, so you're saying that
they wanted to create a defense for a man that had never met,
and had been convicted of six murders?
JOHN ZAFFIS I mean, it makes no sense.
KEVIN MEARS: And you're also saying that an attorney
would think any court would believe this?
JOHN ZAFFIS It's ludicrous. It's totally ludicrous
that they would take it upon themselves to purchase that home
thinking they were gonna turn it into that. Well, we heard it
directly from George. George said that they wanted that to be
their dream home. They sat down, they talked to the kids, they
went over everything, explained everything that there was murders
in there, but they weren't looking at it from that perspective.
They were looking at it as a perspective that it had a built in
pool, had all the rooms that they needed, you know, it was a big
home, everything could be spread out. George talked about having
the business right out of home, so, to me, I did not get the impression
whatsoever that it was "purchased" to turn it into a haunted house.
I didn't get that impression whatsoever.
KEVIN MEARS: And frankly, the house wasn't expensive,
comparatively speaking, for a house like that in a rich area at
the time but it was still a fair amount of money, especially
to go buy it, run after 28 days, and then sell it back to the
bank and lose money on it. I mean, you'd think if they wanted
to write a book, they'd just stay in the house, write the book
and say, "Oh, you know they had some priest come by to exorcise
it or something, and he doesn't want to say anything." I mean
you don't lose the house and think you'll use the money from the
book to pay for it!
JOHN ZAFFIS Right.
LOU GENTILE: Well, I think one of the other things
is, back in the 70's it wasn't exactly socially acceptable to
say that you had a haunting so for someone to even fathom doing
this is pretty far-fetched. Nowadays, you would think that somebody
would do this, that they would come up with a story that their
house is haunted, and all these things, and blah blah blah you
know, and... I don't know...
JOHN ZAFFIS Today, more so than ever and Lou,
you know this for a fact with me I'm more cautious now than
I ever was. Because I don't know whether something is going to
end up being legit, because like you just said, it is more talked
about today, it's much more open today, so this is good as far
as research goes; this is good as far as families getting help,
and that's positive. But when someone starts telling you about
some of the things that are transpiring in their home, you take
it with a grain of salt more so now than you ever did before.
LOU GENTILE: Oh sure.
JOHN ZAFFIS Because you just don't know. You
have to be extremely careful with a lot of the things today.
LOU GENTILE: Well, there's a lot more information
out there today, too.
JOHN ZAFFIS Right! I mean, you know...
[36 min of talk excised Lou & Kevin talk about their feelings
towards the haunting and the murders]
GENTILE: The person who is on the line right now is Kathy
Lutz. We had George Lutz on earlier this week, but Kathy is there
as well as Christopher Lutz. She's gonna tell you about the red
JOHN ZAFFIS Great, looking forward to hearing
it. So we can put that part to bed, so to speak, too.
...I wasn't sure, but I said to Chris, "Maybe I'll call-in."
LOU GENTILE: Oh, there you are. Now you're on,
Kathy. How are you doing, Kathy?
LOU GENTILE: How are you doing?
KEVIN MEARS: Hello, Kathy.
LOU GENTILE: A pleasure to meet you.
JOHN ZAFFIS Hi Kathy, you've been a part of my
life for 28 years.
KEVIN MEARS: Thank you for calling in.
Yeah, this was a surprise. It wasn't planned on my part, I just
spontaneous responded to this. Um...
LOU GENTILE: Kathy, before I do that, I would
like to ask you, how are you feeling? Are you okay?
Yeah, some days I feel good.
LOU GENTILE: Yeah, a lot of the people have asked
me how you were doing. I said I have no idea, I've never met Kathy,
but people were concerned, so...
Some days are real good. Today's a good day.
LOU GENTILE: Well that's good. Alright so, continue,
you were saying about how you were calling in.
Yeah, I was calling in on the question about the Red Room. The
discovery of it came about because I was down in the basement,
rearranging the storage and there were several wooden bookcases
lined up, and I just wanted to rearrange them. And when I pushed
one, this Red Room was revealed behind it. It was an area that
was maybe 32 by 5. It was painted bright red floor, walls and
ceiling. No windows in it, um...
LOU GENTILE: Was it all cement?
It was all cement. It was a cold spot. Later when I told Lee about
it, um, we brought the dog in, we brought Harry in to see what
his response would be to this, and he would not go into it. He
backed out of it. Just literally backed out. We pushed the bookcase
back in place. And just kinda talked about it and what to do with
it. Later on, after everything else had transpired and we had
gotten the building plans for the house that was an area that
was not in the original plan. We couldn't tell you who put it
When they did the investigation on March 6, '76, the consensus
from several of them was that it was an area that where possibly
animal sacrifices were made.
LOU GENTILE: So they, now, this is the police
that made that assertion?
No, this was the investigative team the psychic investigators.
LOU GENTILE: Okay. Wow.
JOHN ZAFFIS Kathy, was there, when you had opened
that, I'm not sure whether you or Lee had gone in there but was
there anything in there at all?
JOHN ZAFFIS There was just plain nothing was
in there whatsoever?
There wasn't a hanger, there wasn't a book, there wasn't a piece
of paper nothing. It was absolutely empty.
LOU GENTILE: That's amazing. Now Kathy, did you
think that the DeFeo's even had any idea that it was there?
I can't say. I really can't.
LOU GENTILE: Really? I don't know, John, that's
really bizarre. What do you think?
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, I'm just thrilled to death
that Kathy called-in and finally answered that for me after all
these years. 'Cause I was always curious to know if there was
anything whatsoever left there, like Kathy said, a book, or a
piece of paper or anything.
JOHN ZAFFIS I was just always curious. Now I'm
glad I know the answer.
LOU GENTILE: Now, Kathy, you said that the room
LOU GENTILE: Was it, like above I mean was
it just abnormally cold there in that particular spot?
KATHY LUTZ: It was colder than the rest of the
area of the basement.
LOU GENTILE: Hmm. Wow. I don't know, Kevin do
you have any questions? That's wild. That really is. I can't imagine
that, I mean what exactly did you do? You removed a book or something?
A wooden bookcase. There were several of them and I was just rearranging
the basement in order to get the storage organized.
LOU GENTILE: Now was this... What was down there?
There were freezers, there was washer machines, dryers.
LOU GENTILE: Was that like the DeFeo's stuff
Some was the DeFeo's, some was ours. We had purchased some of
their appliances [unintelligible].
LOU GENTILE: Right. I guess naturally, when you
buy a house I guess you can get the appliances.
Right. And the wooden storage unit that I was moving was part
of the furnishings that were purchased with the estate.
LOU GENTILE: Wow.
KEVIN MEARS: That's amazing
LOU GENTILE: It really is. Well, thank you very
LOU GENTILE: I really appreciate it.
Alright. God bless you guys.
JOHN ZAFFIS Bye.
LOU GENTILE: God bless you too. I hope you feel
KEVIN MEARS: Yeah.
LOU GENTILE: Wow. That is amazing.
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, I'm very thankful that Kathy
took a few minutes out to call in, Lou, and to finally clear that
up for me, because you have no idea for how many years that's
been bugging me.
min of talk excised then Christopher Lutz calls-in]
GENTILE: Christopher, is this you?
Yeah, you got me.
LOU GENTILE: Oh, there you go.
KEVIN MEARS: Welcome back.
LOU GENTILE: Welcome back. But um, what could
you add to this? 'Cause I'm just trying to suck all of this in,
'cause its just too much.
I got you on my computer here. I'm getting like a 20-second delay
here. Okay. Oh, I don't know what to add. Why don't you go ahead
and ask a question.
LOU GENTILE: Well, how was it for you going through
that 28 days? I can imagine that it was hell, but did you.. Let
me ask you this, when you went into the house, did you figure
it was a normal house, and everything was fine, or did you know
something was wrong?
Well, when we first went in the house, I remember the day that
we where with the real estate agent.
LOU GENTILE: Hello? John, are you there?
JOHN ZAFFIS Yeah. [laughs]
LOU GENTILE: Here we go. Here we go.
JOHN ZAFFIS I was just gonna say, Lou, here we
go again. Tuesday night all over again.
LOU GENTILE: Well you're on the line, but Chris,
I don't know where he went. The line's red, but its dead. The
line's red, but the line's dead. I dunno. This happened once before,
JOHN ZAFFIS I hope that's "no pun intended."
LOU GENTILE: No, its no pun intended, but I'm
looking at the line. Its red, but the line went dead. Alright,
well we're gonna hang that up because apparently he got disconnected,
and he'll probably call back.
KEVIN MEARS: I hope so.
[off-topic talk excised Chris calls back]
GENTILE: Chris, is that you?
LOU GENTILE: There we go. We got disconnected
for a second, so... Okay. My question was, what can you remember
when you first thought, you know, when you first went in the house,
or whatever. Did you have any feelings that this was just a bad
place, or what have you?
Well, I don't know how far into it I was talking and got cut
off. Then I paused and you didn't...
LOU GENTILE: At the very beginning.
KEVIN MEARS: Yeah, its like, "Yeah [unintelligible]"
LOU GENTILE: Its the same thing with Lee. Ya
know, he started answering somebody's question and everything
went down. So I'm just hoping and praying that does not happen
Okay. Well I remember when we first, even before we had moved
into the house, we had gone and were looking at it. We were down
in the basement and there was unfinished walls in some of the
spots. And I had asked "is that where they hid the bodies?" We
already knew that there was a murder there. Us kids knew that
there was a murder. The full details of it, that they were in
their bed, I suppose I wasn't aware of. But yeah, I remember quite
a bit of what took place, and especially after.
LOU GENTILE: So you didn't really have that many
details about exactly what happened to the family that was murdered?
Or you knew details of it?
No, I didn't know details of it. For me to have asked "is that
where they hid the bodies," all I knew was that there was a murder,
I didn't know where they were....
LOU GENTILE: What do you think was the first
noticeable sign that something was wrong in the house? That there
was something there maybe that you couldn't see, that led you
to believe that maybe there was maybe a ghost, I guess, in the
Well as a kid, smelling stuff that smelled dead you don't necessarily
associate that with a ghost. I had no prior knowledge or anything
to that sort of uh, what an encounter would be like. What I would
say, uh...because you asked what did I notice besides seeing something.
So smelling something at the time I didn't associate it with "that's
what that was." The other things would have been sounds. But when
I actually saw something, then I knew I saw something.
LOU GENTILE: What did you see?
Well, in the book, it's described it as a white hooded figure.
Well, I don't remember it as being white, I'd call it more as
gray. As distinct as a shadow but it wasn't against the wall.
LOU GENTILE: So, it could have been like an outline,
LOU GENTILE: When you were in the house, let's
say you were lying down in bed, did you hear noises? And what
kind of noises did you hear? I mean, I'm sure that you were probably
used to hearing noises in a home from before you know, every
house settles. But what did you hear in the house that scared
Well there were several times when I became frightened. Um, Danny
and I shared what was Ronald DeFeo's bedroom, so it would have
been the bedroom with the two quarter moon windows at the front
of the house. The infamous eyes. There was, not so much in that
room, but more in the play what we called the playroom, which
would have been Dawn's room, which is directly across the hall
on the 3rd level. I had some experiences in there that weren't
too cool. The uh... [he hesitates] I don't know if I want to get
into too many details with the uh...people trying to do...there
are some works that people are writing presently and...
LOU GENTILE: Yeah, I understand. I understand.
Plus its difficult to talk about.
KEVIN MEARS: We understand. Just talk about what
you're comfortable with.
LOU GENTILE: Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't
we do this. How about, you know, what sounds in the house... Okay,
let me ask you this, did you hear bangings and rappings on the
walls in the house while you were laying down?
Yeah. Yeah. And those weren't like "house settling" sounds. Those
were, umm, like "things scooting across the floor" sounds. That's
not like a door jamb settling that's different. Stuff that would
make you turn your head real fast. Not just a settle...
LOU GENTILE: Yeah, or get underneath the covers.
That's for sure. Go ahead, Kevin, what were you going to say?
KEVIN MEARS: I have two questions. One which
comes from the chat was, did you have any encounters with Jodie?
Not in the house.
KEVIN MEARS: Okay, the other one which is my
own. I'm understanding that there are some things that for different
reasons you're not going to be overly-comfortable with talking
about. But in terms of what you are talking about, is there anything
you can pick out the most remarkable thing that happened to you?
I mean, again, only as far as you're comfortable.
I don't really know how to describe it to you. Knowing that some
things can happen and then have it happen immediately after...um?
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, basically, Chris, what that
is where information's fed to you, enough to get you scared enough
to throw the energy off. That's basically what you're referring
to was taking place. You would basically know before what's going
Yeah, but it wasn't like your typical type of ..... I don't really
know how to describe it without getting into details for ya. I
did know that there was plenty of stuff that took place that
there's not another way to describe it, it wasn't physical realm
touch stuff whereas...(long hesitation)...where there's a logical
explanation for it. I mean, even looking back all these years
later, there's plenty of times when I just tried to say, so, why
does this happen and why did that happen?
LOU GENTILE: You can tell this is difficult for
him to talk about. And Chris, you were in the armed services and
stuff. Chris isn't like a little kid. This is a tough guy here.
This has got to be pretty hard for him, You can tell in his voice...it
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, like I was saying earlier,
Lou, even us when we were kids when we experienced things with
the supernatural. It's there as clear as day, as if it just happened
yesterday. So those things stays fresh in a person's mind.
LOU GENTILE: Well yeah. You know I would only
confide in you and your Uncle about some of the experiences I
had. Remember? Because I didn't really because I didn't want
people to think I was absolutely out of my skull, and I knew you
guys would understand. So that I can, I can definitely understand
where you're coming from, Chris, because it is difficult to talk
about this. What would you feel comfortable talking about? I'll
leave it up to you.
Alright. You guys talked about plenty this week. Unfortunately
I didn't get a chance to hear a lot of it. And I got the computer
up and running so I've been able to hear last night and tonight.
So that's why I'm finally on the horn. It's a big deal, it's not
something you can just go ahead and forget. I'd like to just forget
it. As this kinda stuff gets brought back up people like Ric
Osuna writing their books, and... You know, that's... What does
this guy know, anyway? You know? I mean. [unintelligible] said
it pretty good, he wasn't bitter.
LOU GENTILE: Well, I mean, that's true. Like
I've stated before, I've interviewed literally hundreds of people,
and I've never had somebody call me up on the phone, at my house,
telling me that they're going to sue me because I put Ric Osuna
on the air. You know? And that's the truth. I've never had that
problem before. And Kevin, we've carried some very, very controversial
guests. You know. And I mean when that happens, it's the kind
of thing that just makes you go, hm, what really is going on here?
And when all the people's names that are here in the book start
calling me on the phone, calling on the air saying, "this guy's
out of his skull", "he's an Amityville junkie", what's that make
me believe? If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck,
and it quacks like a duck...
I think it's probably a duck.
LOU GENTILE: Haha! There you go Chris!
KEVIN MEARS: My words almost exactly most of
LOU GENTILE: I mean, John, can you seem to relate
to this or what?
JOHN ZAFFIS Uh, yeah.
LOU GENTILE: I don't know. I mean, you guys gotta
be pretty sick and tired of people trying to, you know, trying
to act like, you know, they're the experts and then they're going
to, like, expose this great big hoax when what your family did
is they went through a haunting. I mean, I don't know. I don't
know. It's very... I'll tell you, I have never seen a situation
that has so many twists and turns to it and so many people that
come out and wanna speak about a certain topic, or about a certain
issue with this book than when I had him on. And uh, I don't know.
I really don't. Before, it was Kaplan. I mean, let me ask you
a question, did Kaplan torture you guys, did he pester you guys
about a lot of this?
Personally, I didn't even know about Kaplan until they started
talking about the History Channel. I never saw his book. And then
when somebody brought that up.... I remember years ago Danny told
me that he talked to this guy and, ya know, he was gonna tell
him what really happened, and it was a brief conversation and...
I didn't know, I didn't recall his name or anything to that effect.
And then we got to talking about it again. That's when he brought
up who he was and... I haven't even read his book. Someone gave
me a copy of it, but, you know, as far as I'm concerned, that's
garbage. So personally, he didn't bother me. There's another one
that just doesn't really know what happened either. So...
JOHN ZAFFIS Well, Chris, There's a lot of them
LOU GENTILE: Alright guys, I gotta take a short
break. Chris just relax, and when we come back we'll talk about
something you wanna talk about. John, hang on. Everybody else
out there, if you're listening, go grab something to eat. It's
commercial time. You know what time it is, right? We'll be away
for the next six minutes. On The Lou Gentile Show, when
we return, we'll be speaking with Christopher Lutz and John Zaffis,
Myself, and Kevin about The Amityville Horror, and what
really happened on 112 Ocean Avenue right after this.
GENTILE: And we're back to The Lou Gentile Show.
And we're talking tonight, on the last night of The Amityville
Horror week. So far we've had on George Lutz, Lorraine Warren,
Joel Martin, The History Channel, Kathy Lutz, Christopher Lutz,
John Zaffis. This is a lot to soak up here. A lot. Amazing, we're
hearing first hand from the people who were inside of the house
on 112 Ocean Avenue. The basis for the movie and everything. And
its incredible. We're back with John Zaffis. John, welcome back.
JOHN ZAFFIS Thanks
LOU GENTILE: I don't know, man, this is incredible.
It really is.
KEVIN MEARS: This is great.
LOU GENTILE: And we're back now with Christopher
Lutz. And for more information, ladies and gentlemen, you can
go to our website at www.lougentile.com. So, Christopher, what
do you feel comfortable talking about?
Well, during the break, I went ahead and grabbed my briefcase.
That's from my History Channel Interview. I decided to go about
my own investigation. I've got a briefcase full of stuff here.
LOU GENTILE: See, that's a good idea. Why didn't
anyone think of that? The Lutzes investigate The Amityville
Horror. Why not, you know?
Well, maybe you'll [unintelligible] what happened, so... Somebody
that really knew what happened had to do it, so, that's what I
went for. Uh, rather than get into my stuff, because, until that's
all squared away and put together into a final piece, I hate doing
what Ric did to you, but you gotta wait for the book.
LOU GENTILE: [laughing] Oh Man!
Well, here's what I do wanna share with you. Not only did this
house affect our family... You know, it was shortly after my interview
with the History Channel, I was cruisin' around on the internet
and personally I was surprised when I put "Amityville Horror"
into a Google search engine. I couldn't believe how many people,
how many hits it had. I mean it was like, I don't even remember,
LOU GENTILE: You like Google?
Yeah, I've used that one a lot. It's a good search engine. I don't
mean to promote somebody else's site on your radio station, but
it works for me.
LOU GENTILE: I think Google rocks. I use it all
KEVIN MEARS: We're in complete agreement on that
one. Its the simplest and most straight-forward that has the best
results. And I love that.
Yeah, I like that part where you can get the images, and pull
it up. Anyway, so I clicked on Google and this guy's name came
up, at the time, the name of the site was Amity Talk, or something
to that effect. I don't know if anyone talked about Michael Limbaugh
this week, that you guys had on the show, but he claimed to have
an experience of his own with the house. It kinda piqued my curiosity,
so I read around on the site. His site's no longer there, but
Anyway, as a kid, right after the book came
out, he went out to the house. He was in New York going to a bat
mitzvah one of his family members was having, and he convinced
his dad to take him by the house. He got to the house, jumped
out of the car, snapped some photos of the house, got in the car,
and he left. When he got back to California, his mom went and
got the pictures developed, he was only like a 13 year old kid
at the time. His mom got the pictures developed, and in the bedroom
window, what would have been my bedroom... Now Iıve seen these
pictures firsthand. I mean, Iıve held them in my hand. What I
did was, after I ran around on his site, I was thinking, this
guy seems a little bit whacked, but at the same time, somebody
might say the same thing about me. So I gave him a shot and checked
him out. So I e-mailed him a couple of times, and he didnıt believe
it was me. So I told him a couple of things that there ainıt no
way that anybody else could have known, and he was like, okay
I got his confidence. And then he decided... He lived in California,
and presently I live in Scottsdale, Arizona so he jumped in
his car and he came out. Heıd been investigating his own little
thing. Actually, it got pretty deep. It got into a lot of, a lot
of different paranormal type of stuff shamanism, playing with
the Ouija, and a couple other things. Kinda skipping my memory,
exactly what else he dealt in. Numerology and some other things...
And so when he got to my house, I was kinda like, I didnıt know,
what Iıd want him bringing into my house, so I prayed over his
car before I let him bring his stuff in, and when we opened up
the back hatch of his minivan, I felt something go by me. For
LOU GENTILE: Now, you felt a spirit?
Yeah. Yeah. And I knew it couldnıt stick around after what I had
prayed so that was one way out after that [unintelligible] getting
by us. So, anyways we went into the house and brought his stuff
in. I let him tell me what happened. And for about 5-6 hours we
sat there, and I asked him questions. And then later on, Iıd restate
a question, twist it a little bit, and he wasnıt changing his
answers, so I was starting to feel, you know, this guy wasnıt
kidding. And then, the following day, I told my Mom about it,
and had him over to the house and I videotaped him explaining
to my mom what took place to him. I mean this guy physically was
shaking and crying and, you know, he had spiritual encounters
with Dawn, and it was just one hell of a story.
LOU GENTILE: Now, when did this gentleman go
into the house?
He never went in the house. He went to the house as a kid.
LOU GENTILE: So in other words, he drove by it
and took some shots?
Yep. And in the shots thereıs... Well, thereıs a couple that seemed
like they could be something, but thereıs two that, as far as
Iım concerned, they are something. Ah, I got a phone ringing.
Iıll toss this out of the way so I donıt have to listen to it.
JOHN ZAFFIS: Well, from what Chris is describing,
Lou, it sounds like the gentleman heıs talking about is already
pretty much tapped into the supernatural. I mean, heıs played
with the Ouija and heıs been into shamanism and everything else.
He probably already knows how and why and where to basically open
up and bring things through. So, like Chris is saying, is it a
good possibility that it might be a legit-type situation where
he picked up something or actually had something on film. I wouldnıt
be surprised by that, if heıs already tapped into that. Cause
you know as well as I do that, once youıre open to the doors to
that stuff, youıre going to bring things through, whether thereıs
anything actually still happening at that dwelling or not.
KEVIN MEARS: Hey guys?
LOU GENTILE: Yeah?
KEVIN MEARS: Since I know this is something all
of you are going to be somewhat interested in, the answer has
finally been posted.
LOU GENTILE: To what?
KEVIN MEARS: To this week.
LOU GENTILE: What do you mean?
KEVIN MEARS: I mean, I just took a glance over
at Osunaıs site and he actually finally has bothered to put up
some kind of response.
LOU GENTILE: Oh, to who, us?
KEVIN MEARS: Ah, not directly, but itıs pretty
obvious thatıs who he means.
LOU GENTILE: Here, let me go there and read it.
KEVIN MEARS: Itıs under ³Media Center Exposing
LOU GENTILE: See, heıs such an idiot. ³Exposing
the Lies.² The kid was in diapers when this was going on. Heıs
an Amityville junkie. I mean, come on. This is like the guy that
watches teletubbies all day. Iım not talking about George, either.
[all laughing] ıCause I know heıs gonna think Iım talking abut
him now! ...Iım just saying. Letıs see here. Whatıs it? Whereıs
it? Oh, ³Debunking the Lies.²
KEVIN MEARS: Yep, its under, like I said, ³Media
JOHN ZAFFIS: What are you guys talking about?
LOU GENTILE: Weıre talking about...
KEVIN MEARS: amityvillemurders.com
LOU GENTILE: I donıt think this is new, Kevin.
KEVIN MEARS: No, this just got edited. Like I
saw the site earlier today and it wasnıt there.
LOU GENTILE: Here we go... ³Sadly, there are
those who seek to continue the lies and fallacies of The Amityville
Horror as they trivialize the DeFeo murders because they
are more interested in non-existent demonic pigs and green slime
than in reporting accurate information.² Well, apparently heıs
a goofball because I believe that George actually explained a
lot of that.
KEVIN MEARS: Yep.
JOHN ZAFFIS: He sure did.
LOU GENTILE: And ³In their quest to keep alive
a childhood fantasy, they have shown a total disregard for the
truth. It is similar to the case of those individuals after World
War II who refused to believe that the holocaust ever took place.²
I think he just likes writing to hear himself write.
KEVIN MEARS: His ideas are getting funnier and
LOU GENTILE: Oh, like I said, Iım waiting for
him to start investigating Charles Manson. Thatıs the next one.
KEVIN MEARS: I want to know where we trivialized
the murders. We never [unintelligible]...
LOU GENTILE: I donıt think heıs talking about
any... Heıs not stupid enough to do that.
KEVIN MEARS: Well some of the stuff seems to
be direct references to our show.
LOU GENTILE: Because believe me... Well...
KEVIN MEARS: And stuff thatıs been said, but
thereıs stuff on there about Daniel Farrands...
LOU GENTILE: Look, if I go on a crusade against
him, he will pray to the Almighty that I never did that.
KEVIN MEARS: Youıre right there, I know you well
enough to know that!
LOU GENTILE: Because if I go on a crusade, you
know, the DeFeo book, you might as well bring it to one of those
trash burnings. You know, because people will be showing up there
with the book.
KEVIN MEARS: And then we did a pretty good job
LOU GENTILE: Oh yeah, here we go: ³Is it true
that Geraldine DeFeo harassed the show producers? Not so. She
only wanted assurance from the documentary and the director Daniel
Farrands that the show was going to be objective, after the showıs
producers contacted her for her personal photographs.² Here we
go. We got all these bogus things. Now, here he has an email that
was scanned, right? Heıs asinine enough to put your fatherıs home
address up on his website, but he doesnıt put Daniel Farrandıs
email address up there.
KEVIN MEARS: Hereıs one more even more twisted.
I looked over this ³documentation² he has on the site and I donıt
know if anyone else has noticed this, but for one thing, most
of the documentation is typed and the signatures, the one thing
that you couldnıt verify is the handwriting he claims itıs from.
All blotted out! So like for all we know its got, like ³Ron²
black so for all we know it could say Ronald McDonald!
LOU GENTILE: First of all, why is this goofball
using Geraldine DeFeo? Thatıs not her last name, itıs Gates. I
mean, whatıs the deal with that? Anybody have any clues to this?
I donıt know. See, heıs not man enough to come on here, because
I know heıs listening.
KEVIN MEARS: We both know heıs listening. I think
weıre all reasonably sure heıs listening, but he wonıt call.
LOU GENTILE: You know when heıll contact me?
When the archives are up.
KEVIN MEARS: Oh, of course.
LOU GENTILE: [whiny voice] ³Oh, I listened to
I thought it was pretty funny what uh... I had called Ric up when
I heard his book came out ...I called him and said, ³Hey man,
why donıt you send me a copy of your book!² So he sent me one
and uh, I asked him, go ahead and add a little signature in there
for me and add a little message too. And he writes in there, ³I
hope this answered your question.² [laughing] That was pretty
talk excised Lou and Kevin bash Ric some more]
GENTILE: Anyway, Chris, go ahead. I know that you were
talking to all of us about this story with this guy. So this gentlemen
was having a... By the way, if youıre just listening, weıre having
Christopher Lutz, who is one of the children inside of the Amityville
House, oh, youıll find out. Anyway, so this guy went ahead and
he had all of these experiences about Dawn and things like that.
Now did you ever let this guy in your house? What happened?
Yeah, I did.
LOU GENTILE: Okay, what happened after that?
Well, I wound up... I was heading to New York back in, it would
have been May of ... two years ago. He wanted to go too, so I
let him come on out and meet up with me out in New York. We went
by the house together, and then we went by the DeFeo Grave. And
when we went by that grave, the guy just started busting up crying,
just shaking really hard and I didnıt know if he was going to
pass out or what. He definitely had some kind of an experience
on some kind of level with Dawn. Then he called me a couple of
times after we returned and he had more problems back at his house,
and winded up leaving all the stuff there and taking off. He cruised
around in his motor home and that was the last I heard from him.
I got a postcard from him, and it says ³Iıll see you soon², and
after that the guy just kinda dropped out of sight. So whether
heıs alright or not, I donıt know. I hope he didnıt do anything
stupid like suicide or anything, but... thatıs a possibility.
LOU GENTILE: Now, how have things been since
you left the house? Have they been up and down, straight line...?
Ah well, when we first left the house, especially in grandmaıs
house, there was, my Nana, there was stuff going on there. And
then, once we got out to California, it wasnıt good either. That
happened for several years. There was ups and downs for sure during
that period of time, but I can remember several major flare-ups.
And then, years later, after Iıd left home and was out in New
York, I was upstate in the military, Fort Drum. And on the weekends
Iıd cruise down to the city, down to Long Island, check out my
cousins, my brother. There was an occasion when my brother and
I went to... I asked him, ³where is the house?² and uh, we went
by the house and we pulled up in front of the house. We were both
drunk. Weıd been smoking. We walked up and pissed on the lawn,
flipped the house off and just because it caused me so many problems
in my life. And uh, I thought I was rid of it because I changed
my name and nobody would know it was me anymore and uh, that just
started things back up again on me.
JOHN ZAFFIS: Thatıs, uh... You were in a vulnerable
state as it was and the amount of recognition Iım not surprised,
Chris. That will do it instantly.
Yeah, it wasnıt good. A lot of stuff took place when I got back
up to the basin. In New York, my roommate stuff was happening
with him. The van that I was in, it got rolled. Both the guys
that were in there almost died. A lot of witchcraft in upstate
New York. Around [unintelligible], in that area.
JOHN ZAFFIS: Fort Drum. You mean right up right
around that area of Fort Drum?
JOHN ZAFFIS: Yes, there is. Yeah, thereıs quite
a bit of activity up in that area.
Oh yeah, there was, you know, another time I had seriously bad
dreams after that. [unintelligible] Had some dreams that I was
decapitated and died and go to hell and all that stuff. Not that
thatıs paranormal to have a nightmare, but, you know, the level
that it affects you and then your subconscious and whether or
not that feeds into your dreams. Iım sure that plays a role. But
when somethingıs that real to you, youıll dream about it, too.
It wasnıt a joke. Everything... A lot of things happened there,
you know, thatıs... Its all very real to me.
LOU GENTILE: Well, it sounds like there was a
lot that happened to you, Chris, and you can tell in your voice
that, from what Iıve seen, and I know John, you have literally
interviewed and been on thousands upon thousands of cases with
individuals who have hauntings in their homes. From my aspect,
John, I think that what heıs saying right here is from his heart.
It doesnıt sound like heıs out, out for, you know, to make a buck,
or to do something; but itıs just difficult for him to get it
out because he probably doesnıt like bringing it up. And I canıt
say that I blame him for that.
KEVIN MEARS: Not at all, I wouldnıt think that
this would be an easy thing to discuss.
JOHN ZAFFIS: I can understand what heıs doing,
is heıs trying to straighten it out, you know, get the facts out
there. And thatıs basically what counts because like all of us
know, and Chris said the same thing, you put Amityville in and
you come up with more stuff than you can shake a stick at. I mean,
itıs incredible. Iıve seen more things and more people that have
been involved with that case than I donıt know what. And some
of them werenıt even born yet.
LOU GENTILE: Alright Chris...Iım gonna... Iım
gonna...Iım gonna... I hate do do this but...I gotta... Iım gonna
let him go because I gotta actually discuss some other stuff and
bring some things up.
KEVIN MEARS: Hey Chris, thanks for calling in.
LOU GENTILE: Definitely thanks for calling in,
Chris, I appreciate it.
Sure. Iıll probably be giving you a call another night.
LOU GENTILE: Yeah, believe me, the lines always
open here for you, man.
LOU GENTILE: So thatıs not a problem. And I do
thank you for coming along. So with that, tell your mother thank
you very much, I appreciate it, and I hope she stays in good health,
hangs up remainder of show excised]